Brokeback Mountain

[danfrank]

I think they were comfortable with Tom Hanks in Philadelphia because he was sick and dying. It's okay to be queer if you're somehow not threatening: a silly queen, a pathetic queen, dying, or dead. Tragic, in some way. Of course, on a conscious level most people would deny this, but on a subconscious level I think there is still a lot of truth to this. I also think people are unduly impressed when a straight man plays a gay man effeminately: "he was so convincing!"

As for the de-queering of homosexuality and the queer-critical backlash, Eric: you may be onto something. I dig the edgy queer stuff, but I believe there's room for portraying all manner of ways of being queer in the world. I'll bet that there are a lot more men who will identify with the Ennis and Jack characters in Brokeback than those who identify with Nathan Lane in Birdcage or the outlaws in The Living End.

[danfrank]

I think they were comfortable with Tom Hanks in Philadelphia because he was sick and dying. It's okay to be queer if you're somehow not threatening: a silly queen, a pathetic queen, dying, or dead. Tragic, in some way. Of course, on a conscious level most people would deny this, but on a subconscious level I think there is still a lot of truth to this. I also think people are unduly impressed when a straight man plays a gay man effeminately: "he was so convincing!"

As for the de-queering of homosexuality and the queer-critical backlash, Eric: you may be onto something. I dig the edgy queer stuff, but I believe there's room for portraying all manner of ways of being queer in the world. I'll bet that there are a lot more men who will identify with the Ennis and Jack characters than those who identify with Nathan Lane in Birdcage or the outlaws in The Living End.

[Sonic Youth]

and what about Philadelphia?

You could make that case. But AIDS effectively asexualizes the protaganist. I know he's still a gay man, but straight audiences don't have to see him as a sexual being.

[Sonic Youth]

Maybe that's what's bugging a number of the gay critics who've spoken out against the film: the de-queering of homosexuality.

See, I've heard that complaint several times now. I'm just wondering, is the novella (which I haven't read) also a case study in de-queering?

[filmgabber]

I'm excited for my straight friends to see this movie because I often have to dig up foreign titles that portray male-male relationships vs. ones that just have good sex scenes in them. I want an excellent, American-made film that displays affection, heartache, longing and sincere emotion between two men.

I think Hollywood has asked for too long that we accept straight love as something serious and gay love as something to giggle at ("The Birdcage") or be terrified to death of ("Boys Don't Cry"). Whether or not Ang Lee focuses on it being an actual gay love story or just a love story, you can't not think on your way going into the theatre that this movie is about two men who have feelings for each other.

So maybe you're straight and just want a good film to see, and one that focuses on a story, not a love story or gay love story. But at some point when scrolling down a list of movies to spend $9 on, plus junk food and/or parking and/or public transport and/or any other added expense, some will choose this film over others and I'm excited for those non-gay folks who say, "why not?". Afterall, I said "why not?" a gazillion times to see a man and a woman be in love on screen.

btw - I own a copy of "Making Love" on VHS and the scene where...well, you know...is one of my all-time favorite male-male scenes ever.

[Eric]

Maybe that's what's bugging a number of the gay critics who've spoken out against the film: the de-queering of homosexuality.

[Hustler]

and what about Philadelphia?

[Sonic Youth]

I don't know, but I don't think those were good examples.

[Hustler]

so you think there´s a connection between the gay stereotype and the mass media`s acceptance

[Sonic Youth]

And these performances netted goose-egg Oscar noms. Nor did the films light the American box office on fire.

[Hustler]

I think mainstream audiences are more comfortable with gay men being played a la Nathan Lane, or William Hurt in Kiss of the Spider Woman.

I don´t agree Dan. Remember Another Country, or Al Pacino´s Cruising or the subtle performance of Dirk Bogarde in Death in Venice or the contradictions of Dennis Quaid in Far From Heaven, just to name a few.

[danfrank]

The characters of Ennis and Jack are the antithesis of the characters played by Nathan Lane and Hank AZaria in The Birdcage. These are both masculine, but not exaggeratedly uber-masculine, men. I think that's why so many gay men (me included) were excited about seeing this film.

That brings up another concern of mine, though. I think mainstream audiences are more comfortable with gay men being played a la Nathan Lane, or William Hurt in Kiss of the Spider Woman. Early awards have Philip Seymour Hoffman winning for Capote, and I predict that he's more likely to win the Oscar specifically because audiences are more comfortable with gay men being portrayed this way. I thought Hoffman did a terrific job with the role, especially in conveying the internal conflict of Capote. But Heath Ledger just goes so many layers deeper in his portrayal of Ennis. This is one of the all-time heartbreaking characters portrayed on film, and I hope he gets the recognition he deserves. I'll be remembering this performance for the rest of my days.

[OscarGuy]

There is a minimal amount of dialogue devoted to the recognition of the relationship as abnormal (more is said by the characters themselves than those around them).

The romance between two men IS the central focus of the story and can't help being the central theme. The movie's ABOUT a forbidden love, so it will be impossible NOT to consider the film about two men who fall in love. Having said that, I think it very gently handles the subject and there's not a 2x4 upside the head in my perspective.

Much of what is displayed is more important than what is said. The film works from an acting perspective because the longing and passion is non-verbal.

Brokeback Mountain handles the forbidden love aspect far less outwardly than say in Romeo and Juliet, so to that end, the film does not throw neon lights up directing the audience to feel a certain way. However, anyone, gay or straight, can easily find something in the relationship between Ennis and Jack to which they can relate.

[Franz Ferdinand]

Thanks dan. I'm not arguing against the gay aspect of it (since that IS the most prevalent thing about the movie), but after thinking, my fears are of characters that are caricatures of gay males. Specifically, I'm thinking Nathan Lane and Hank Azaria in Birdcage. Entertaining as they are (meant to be), I always thought Robin Williams was more believable as a real person. Same with Michael C. Hall's characterization of David Fisher on Six Feet Under; gay men who aren't a theatrical overkill. The previews and the reviews of those who have seen BM make it clear that these are characterizations of men who "aren't gay" (as Ennis says) but are in love - a real, respecful sketching. Maybe I'm just anticipating this movie so much, and I hope that it will be perfect (which of course it can't be) that I'm getting antsy about the slightest problem with it. And I agree, I can't wait until we can all see it and discuss it.

[danfrank]

Having seen the film, I can assure you that it is not a movie-of-the-weekish, preachy, rub-it-in-your face issue film, not in the least. But is there an emphasis on it being a GAY love story? In my opinion, not really. But unless it took place in a vacuum, a film about "lovers who happen to be male" would not be very honest, or very interesting. The gay angle of the movie is that these two men live in a context where being a male in love with another male makes love painful and damn-near impossible. This is not really any different than a story in which love is forbidden because of class, race, etc. This is not a "message" film in any obvious way. Ang Lee does a great job letting the audience take whatever message they want.

I can't wait until this opens more widely so folks can stop speculating about it and just see it. It's good stuff.