Koran Documentary

[anonymous1980]

so Judaism has a more liberal and freethinking modern viewpoint than the other two.

Ha???

Judaism also have conservative branches: Orthodox and Hasidic are considered to be just as rigid as conservative Christianity and Islam. (Though not a lot of Jews blow up abortion clinics or blow themselves up to have sex with 72 virgins). Plus there are people like Michael Medved and Dr. Laura Schlesinger.

[Zahveed]

The ten commandments are basically just laws to prevent chaos (stop killing people, we need them to work and the bodies cause disease; stop fucking each other's spouses, we're overpopulated as it is and you're pissing the husbands off; stop gambling, it's not good for the economy; stop stealing shit).

You have probably given Mel Brooks an idea for his next film!

Sounds more Monty Python to me - maybe Terry Gilliam could make it

I'll add it to one of my screenplays somewhere.

[Big Magilla]

The ten commandments are basically just laws to prevent chaos (stop killing people, we need them to work and the bodies cause disease; stop fucking each other's spouses, we're overpopulated as it is and you're pissing the husbands off; stop gambling, it's not good for the economy; stop stealing shit).

You have probably given Mel Brooks an idea for his next film!

Sounds more Monty Python to me - maybe Terry Gilliam could make it

[Uri]

so Judaism has a more liberal and freethinking modern viewpoint than the other two.

Ha???

[Reza]

The ten commandments are basically just laws to prevent chaos (stop killing people, we need them to work and the bodies cause disease; stop fucking each other's spouses, we're overpopulated as it is and you're pissing the husbands off; stop gambling, it's not good for the economy; stop stealing shit).

You have probably given Mel Brooks an idea for his next film!

[Zahveed]

Speaking of the Old Testament: Moses, scribe of the first five books, was apparently a heavy user of shrooms. In fact, the whole exodus was a drug-fueled odyssey. The region that they traveled through was covered in hallucinogenic mushrooms and when you're on the road you have to eat what's available. So when you pair that with man's tendency to overexaggerate, you get some pretty messed up scenarios. (Burning bushes that talk for instance). Then you have all the things that Moses did to scare the shit out of Egypt. Scientifically it's possible they were all natural occurances, all of which would lead to the "hand of God" aka death, but they ended up being explained as part of God's work. (Turning the water into blood is actually the staff releasing red sand/clay from the soil, frogs have been known to rain from the sky, etc.)

Those who don't understand attribute it to an invisible, higher power. The more educated people of the time understood this and used it to their advantage, using religion as way of controlling their society. The ten commandments are basically just laws to prevent chaos (stop killing people, we need them to work and the bodies cause disease; stop fucking each other's spouses, we're overpopulated as it is and you're pissing the husbands off; stop gambling, it's not good for the economy; stop stealing shit). Then they tell everyone to come to the temple every week so they can enforce this.

It's just a theory. I was raised protestant-christian and instead of listening to their interpretations, this is the kind of stuff I thought about.

[Big Magilla]

Thanks for sharing, Todd, it sounds like an excellent documentary.

For anyone looking for a narrative film that explores the subject of women in a fundamentalist Islamic society, Persepolis is a good place to start.

Pen, your sister sounds like an idiot. Hopefully she has some good points you haven't mentioned. Just be glad your situation is only temporary. The best way to deal with highly opinionated people is to ignore them as much as possible or take the wind out of their sails by saying something that makes them look ridiculous. For example, next time you're watching a movie together that you've seen with a sex scene coming up tell her to close her eyes and you'll let her know when it's safe to re-open them.

That ignorant comment about Barbra Streisand not having the right to sing Christmas carols because she is Jewish makes me sad. I had a Jewish music teacher in the first grade who loved Christmas carols and sang them more beautifully and with more passion than I've ever heard anyone sing them. I'd kind of like to see Streisand do a Christmas special backed by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir.

[kaytodd]

Hijack away, Penelope. I think comments like yours are perfectly appropriate for this thread. I am sure Wes would prefer them here than in some film thread.

I am not sure your comments would be considered hijacking anyway. One of the things that struck me about that documentary was how many families in Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Indonesia, etc. are experiencing the same conflicts over religion and related matters that we are. You and your sister have twins in families all over the Muslim world.

Wes, you are right to wonder why I should be surprised about the similarities among the Christian, Muslim and Judaic worlds. But you know, I was unaware, and I consider myself an educated, informed, curious and open-minded person. There are many educated and informed Americans (and probably Brits, Frenchmen, Germans, etc.) who are also unaware.

One matter I was glad to see addressed was female circumcision and honor killings. A lot of right wing demagogues are telling their followers that the Koran commands that all women undergo that procedure when they reach puberty and that women who get romantically involved with a man without their father's approval must be killed by her father or brothers (a few Law And Order episodes are also helping spread this slander).

According to scholars interviewed for the documentary, honor killings and female circumcision are customs that were practiced by certain ethnic groups that were conquered by Islamic armies during the early centuries of the last millenium. These people converted to Islam (another thing Islam and Christianity have in common: using force of arms to spread their religion) but took many of their traditions and adapted them to their particular Islam practice. However, according to the scholars, the Koran forbids both barbaric practices.

I wonder if we will soon see an ad from the McCain campaign saying that Obama plans to issue executive orders commanding female circumcision and allowing honor killings if he is elected. ???



Edited By kaytodd on 1218035711

[OscarGuy]

Well, Kaytodd, I don't know why you would think Islam would be any different from Judaism or Christianity considering all three are inexcerably linked. I mean, Christianity is just a furtherance of Judaism and Islam is almost a furtherance of Christianity. They all share the Old Testament. Christianity and Islam share the New Testament and Islam has its own separate book.

They are cut from the same cloth and often follow the same wrong-headed attitudes. Thankfully, Judaism has generally been the oppressed religion while Christianity and Islam have mostly been the oppressors in their parts o the world, so Judaism has a more liberal and freethinking modern viewpoint than the other two.

[Penelope]

Right now, I'm in a very difficult and unpleasant situation (ie, be careful what you wish for: I was unhappy in Chicago so I moved back to Florida, now I'm even MORE unhappy and depressed!) related to religion, and informs why I have such an incredible antipathy to it.

My sister is ten years older than me, and she also recently moved back to Florida from Utah with her husband and daughter; they're also temporarily staying with mom (so there's 5 of us in a 2 bedroom apt) and as you can guess, they're Mormon. Now, her kids, especially her oldest son, are pretty cool, open minded and rather liberal. But my sister closed her mind 30 years ago and hasn't bothered to open it.

She refuses to watch R-rated films, but, as usual, is hypocritical (to my way of thinking) about what is acceptable and what is not acceptable: ie, violence is ok (she loved The Dark Knight) but any reference to sex is verbotene (we watched The Painted Veil, which is pretty tame imho, and she went ballistic when the movie showed Naomi Watts and Liev Schrieber in bed). Then she made a derogatory comment about me being gay (I'm persuing "the wrong sex") and said that she doesn't believe gay people are born that way.

I may be direct and blunt on the board, but in real life I tend to withdraw from an argument unless pushed really hard; I'm now just trying to avoid her, but that isn't easy.

Besides it hurts, and all of it is because of a religion. I really, honestly cannot understand why someone would willingly close their mind to not only the variety of experiences that life has to offer, but also persist in believing in stuff that is totally irrational. And I'm not just talking Mormonism, I'm talking ALL religions: Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Bhuddism, etc. Sure, some great art has come from it, and religious organizations do some good work, but overall I find organized religion (and even un-organized religion) to be a negative, disruptive and harmful force in society. It just makes people totally irrational and virulent, whether it be disparaging Barbra Streisand for recording Christmas carols (somebody over AfterElton attacked her because, as a Jew, she shouldn't do such things!) to making cruel, uninformed comments to a brother to killing people.

Sorry for hijacking your thread, kaytodd; I just had to get this off my chest, and it just came bubbling out; I thought perhaps this thread would be an opportunity for us to discuss religion (hopefully nicely).

[kaytodd]

The National Geographic Channel ran a very interesting documentary last night called Inside The Koran. The focus of the documentary was the varied interpretations of the Koran and how this affects individual lives in the Islamic world, as well as entire nations and regions. It was a revelation to me and a good use of two hours.

This board has members all over the world and I am sure many of you who live outside the U.S. are rolling your eyes thinking "You were not aware of this already?" That is a correct reaction. I was not really aware of the diversity of the Islamic world and eye-rolling and exasperation is an appropriate response. Many of us in the U.S. are completley unaware of the diversity in the Islamic world and think in stereotypes, many of them unpleasant.

The reason this documentary hit a chord with me was that it all looked very familiar. I went to Catholic elementary and high schools and received my graduate degree from a Catholic university. I was required to take a lot of courses on Christian theology and the history of Christianity and the Catholic Church. Last night's documentary discussed how moderate Muslims can find passages to support a more inclusive point of view and hard line Muslims can find passages in support of their point of view. The examples shown focused on the role of women, crime and punishment, and relations between Muslims and non-Muslims. Both Islamic scholars and ordinary citizens in the Islamic world were interviewed. The discussions were almost identical to those I have heard and read between fundamentalist and mainstream Christians.

One part of the show I especially liked showed a family in Cairo talking over dinner. The daughters had their heads covered in what we in the West think of as "traditional" Muslim female dress (I put "traditional" in quotations because one female scholar pointed out that, until the late 1970's, you would not see any veiled women on the streets of Cairo). But the mother was dressed in "modern" Western clothing. The parents and daughters were having a friendly debate over whether Muslim women were required to dress in any particular way. The parents said the Koran says nothing about veils but the daughters point out that certain passages suggest a certain type of dress, etc. The mother had a good line, saying that she thinks of her hair as part of her face. I have a hard time picturing anyone from that family wanting to commit murder. They reminded me of my neighbors.

That scene made me think of conversations that baby boomers have with their children who have become fundamentalist Christians. These families have very similar debates about what the Bible says about how people should live their everyday lives.

The documentary also discusses how there is controversy over whether the Koran has changed over the years. Fundamentalist Christians believe God was guiding the men who wrote the Old and New Testaments and the Bible we have today is the literal word of God. Muslim tradition similarly holds that the Koran is the literal word of God. But in recent decades archeological discoveries have uncovered evidence that the Bible and Koran used today may have changed over the centuries.

I found it comforting to see that many of the same controversies going on in the Christian and Jewish worlds are taking place in the Islamic world. Knowing this makes me hopeful that we will understand and cooperate with each other.