The Closed Topic
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Big Magilla
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Penelope wrote:Magilla: yes, it was censorship, pure and simple. You closed the thread and moved it to a location where it will soon be deleted. You were saying "You cannot discuss this anymore." Now, I had assumed you had closed it because I'd made a sexual innuendo, but, apparently, it was because people were upset that others were fighting.
Then, Italiano is correct, isn't he? This is cowardice all around, isn't it? People who are wringing their hands and go running to Magilla, rather than either a) posting in the thread asking people to calm down and stop arguing with each other or b) even just sending a private message to that person (or persons) asking them to calm down, etc. And so Magilla, without bothering to ask the opinion of others on the board, closes the thread without any recourse.
And to blame Italiano for the blow up in that thread is thoroughly wrong. In fact, he brought up a memory that was ON-TOPIC!!! That others turned it into a brouhaha by linking to an old board with hurtful comments buried in it (which they probably didn't realize or remember were there) is hardly his fault.
I don't think there's a mafia behind the scenes trying to control things or weed out people; I do think, however, that certain cliques have developed, which isn't surprising considering how long we've all known each other.
The board is not a democracy, it's an autocracy though one with a mostly benevolent leader... or if you prefer, a courtroom in which OG is the judge. I am merely the associate judge who acts only when the lead judge is not around, or this case so personally involved that I didn't feel it fair to ask him to weigh in on whehher or not to close the thread. If I violated anyone's rights, it was his, not yours or anyone else's here.
There was nothing stopping anyone from opening up a new thread to continue the discussion if they felt so moved though I had hoped that you would all take the hint and move on. Ha!
This is not about Italiano. I mentioned him first because he started this, innocently as he may have. If this were the first time he brought up one of his old grudges, I'd say let it pass, but he does this time and time again and to use of one his favorite phrases, "you know it." Now I happen to like Italiano. I've learned a lot from him as I have from many of you. He's entitled to his opinions, and I'm always happy to read something new he's posted but when he starts to go down memory lane it always leads to the same old arguments.
As for cliques, I don't really know what you're referring to. We are, like it or not, very much like a family. Some of us sometime side with one family member against another and sometimes we side with the other against the first. Some of us try not to fight with anyone, but even we are sometimes goaded into taking sides. I don't like taking sides. I have no problem arbitrating between two sides but I hate to be drawn into fights and I especially don't like to be drawn into fights where I am just the messenger.
Some people really do come here just to read about movies. They may have very busy lives or lead very hard private lives. They may be quite sensitive. They may not have the stomach to read, let alone comment on things that disturb them. Why would they want to comment in an already expolsive thread where they know they will get shot down?
And why would you think I closed the thread because of a sexual innuendo? If you made one, it must have passed me by.
Edited By Big Magilla on 1200465630
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OscarGuy
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Really? I could have sworn you were married...I don't know where I got that idea from...Big Magilla wrote:OscarGuy wrote:First of all, Magilla and Cam are not gay anything. They are two of only a slim few straight, married chaps on the board. So, if you were referring to the gay mafia, Steph2, no one else was.
Well, cam is married anyway.
Wesley Lovell
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." - Benjamin Franklin
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." - Benjamin Franklin
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OscarGuy
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Just for clarification, nothing from the Pre-Delete Rescue forum has ever been deleted. I created it at a time when the site was taking up too much space and I was running out (we even had board outages because of it). Well, I fixed some those problems by lowering the resolution on the graphics of my site, which created a notable drop in size, which meant I didn't have to delete them. I also didn't feel like sorting through them and trying to figure out where they went, so I left them there...I may change the title someday when I feel/think about it, but I just wanted to clarify that that forum does NOT get deleted.
Wesley Lovell
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." - Benjamin Franklin
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." - Benjamin Franklin
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Big Magilla
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Bravo Penelope! I agree with just about everything you said, though not so much about Sonic and myself being alike. I'm not trying to convince people that I'm a genius, and my compassion - when I show it - is genuine. You are probably right however that he's probably just not used to someone being this tenacious.
What the hell, I'll let it all hang out. No, not that!
Magilla: yes, it was censorship, pure and simple. You closed the thread and moved it to a location where it will soon be deleted. You were saying "You cannot discuss this anymore." Now, I had assumed you had closed it because I'd made a sexual innuendo, but, apparently, it was because people were upset that others were fighting.
Then, Italiano is correct, isn't he? This is cowardice all around, isn't it? People who are wringing their hands and go running to Magilla, rather than either a) posting in the thread asking people to calm down and stop arguing with each other or b) even just sending a private message to that person (or persons) asking them to calm down, etc. And so Magilla, without bothering to ask the opinion of others on the board, closes the thread without any recourse.
And to blame Italiano for the blow up in that thread is thoroughly wrong. In fact, he brought up a memory that was ON-TOPIC!!! That others turned it into a brouhaha by linking to an old board with hurtful comments buried in it (which they probably didn't realize or remember were there) is hardly his fault.
I have several friends that are European and it's true, they ARE different from Americans, they have a very different perspective on life, culture, politics, etc., and they are very, very blunt and direct when discussing such issues. My friends Fred and Denis in Paris are like this, Wayne from England is like this, and so it doesn't surprise me that Marco from Italy is like this. Now, if I'm to be honest, there are aspects of European culture that is bothersome to me--notably, a certain hypocrisy about racism, especially in France--but there's much about American culture that upsets me, too, even moreso because this is my home.
One of those things is our puritan censorship of any discussion of sex: that films such as Saw and Hostel which portray the explicit torture of men and women are considered acceptable while the sexual explicitness of Lust, Caution is considered unacceptable is incredibly wrong-headed to me. That we are starting to censor this topic on this board really upsets me: this is a board devoted to the discussion of art, and here we are censoring discussion, which is the height of hypocrisy.
I don't think there's a mafia behind the scenes trying to control things or weed out people; I do think, however, that certain cliques have developed, which isn't surprising considering how long we've all known each other.
Oh, and Steph and Sonic: pot, meet kettle, kettle meet pot. I like both of you, just as like pretty much everybody on this board, I love to read all your comments and debates, and you often open my mind to new ways of thinking. But you do know both of you guys are baiting each other, don't you? Sonic, face it, it is something that you've done in the past; it looks like you've met somebody who won't give up so easy!
Yes, OscarGuy, let's enjoy the Oscar season--clearly, this year is shaping up to be one of the best Oscar races in years, both in terms of the quality of the films and the genuine suspense in so many of the categories. So, let's do enjoy the season, enjoy each others company, recognize that we sometimes rub each other the wrong way, but let's not censor discussion, let's embrace our debates, our jokes, our good times and our bad times.
Edited By Penelope on 1200455178
Magilla: yes, it was censorship, pure and simple. You closed the thread and moved it to a location where it will soon be deleted. You were saying "You cannot discuss this anymore." Now, I had assumed you had closed it because I'd made a sexual innuendo, but, apparently, it was because people were upset that others were fighting.
Then, Italiano is correct, isn't he? This is cowardice all around, isn't it? People who are wringing their hands and go running to Magilla, rather than either a) posting in the thread asking people to calm down and stop arguing with each other or b) even just sending a private message to that person (or persons) asking them to calm down, etc. And so Magilla, without bothering to ask the opinion of others on the board, closes the thread without any recourse.
And to blame Italiano for the blow up in that thread is thoroughly wrong. In fact, he brought up a memory that was ON-TOPIC!!! That others turned it into a brouhaha by linking to an old board with hurtful comments buried in it (which they probably didn't realize or remember were there) is hardly his fault.
I have several friends that are European and it's true, they ARE different from Americans, they have a very different perspective on life, culture, politics, etc., and they are very, very blunt and direct when discussing such issues. My friends Fred and Denis in Paris are like this, Wayne from England is like this, and so it doesn't surprise me that Marco from Italy is like this. Now, if I'm to be honest, there are aspects of European culture that is bothersome to me--notably, a certain hypocrisy about racism, especially in France--but there's much about American culture that upsets me, too, even moreso because this is my home.
One of those things is our puritan censorship of any discussion of sex: that films such as Saw and Hostel which portray the explicit torture of men and women are considered acceptable while the sexual explicitness of Lust, Caution is considered unacceptable is incredibly wrong-headed to me. That we are starting to censor this topic on this board really upsets me: this is a board devoted to the discussion of art, and here we are censoring discussion, which is the height of hypocrisy.
I don't think there's a mafia behind the scenes trying to control things or weed out people; I do think, however, that certain cliques have developed, which isn't surprising considering how long we've all known each other.
Oh, and Steph and Sonic: pot, meet kettle, kettle meet pot. I like both of you, just as like pretty much everybody on this board, I love to read all your comments and debates, and you often open my mind to new ways of thinking. But you do know both of you guys are baiting each other, don't you? Sonic, face it, it is something that you've done in the past; it looks like you've met somebody who won't give up so easy!
Yes, OscarGuy, let's enjoy the Oscar season--clearly, this year is shaping up to be one of the best Oscar races in years, both in terms of the quality of the films and the genuine suspense in so many of the categories. So, let's do enjoy the season, enjoy each others company, recognize that we sometimes rub each other the wrong way, but let's not censor discussion, let's embrace our debates, our jokes, our good times and our bad times.
Edited By Penelope on 1200455178
"...it is the weak who are cruel, and...gentleness is only to be expected from the strong." - Leo Reston
"Cruelty might be very human, and it might be cultural, but it's not acceptable." - Jodie Foster
"Cruelty might be very human, and it might be cultural, but it's not acceptable." - Jodie Foster
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OscarGuy
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First of all, Magilla and Cam are not gay anything. They are two of only a slim few straight, married chaps on the board. So, if you were referring to the gay mafia, Steph2, no one else was.
As to the topic of an apology, An apology for something said in public, even if it was behind someone's back (and contrary to Zach's assertion, it was NOT a private forum), should be made publicly. Requiring ME to contact YOU, Sonic, by PM to request an apology is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. I'm not going to beg you for an apology.
What strikes me odd about this conversation is that Sonic, the worst person for not letting things go, is jumping all over other people for doing the same thing. This is one of the things that drives me crazy about you, Sonic. You say you remember why you were bad mouthing me 5 years ago? That's amazing, because I don't hold onto grudges that long and so if it's something you still remember then obviously it still bothers you. If anyone is in need of letting go, it's you.
And Sonic, you aren't the only one in need of apologizing...so don't everyone solely gang up on Sonic. I received one apology for other matters by email and Zach apologized earlier in that thread. The problem is they initiated the apologies. I didn't have to demand them or ask for them.
I said I wanted to move past it because the incident is done and over with. I never said I didn't want an apology. I did, however, say that I wouldn't be surprised if I didn't get one.
This thread has become horribly divisive and we're getting ready to go into the greatest time of the year for every one of us. We all love the Oscars and film, regardless of how we feel about anything else, it's the ONE unifying thing between us all. Let's try to move past all of this. Let's say our apologies. Let's try to forget the animosity we feel towards one another after such a heated argument. And let's celebrate Oscar and every trashy, insincere aspect of the glitz-fest we came to this board to discuss in the first place.
As to the topic of an apology, An apology for something said in public, even if it was behind someone's back (and contrary to Zach's assertion, it was NOT a private forum), should be made publicly. Requiring ME to contact YOU, Sonic, by PM to request an apology is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. I'm not going to beg you for an apology.
What strikes me odd about this conversation is that Sonic, the worst person for not letting things go, is jumping all over other people for doing the same thing. This is one of the things that drives me crazy about you, Sonic. You say you remember why you were bad mouthing me 5 years ago? That's amazing, because I don't hold onto grudges that long and so if it's something you still remember then obviously it still bothers you. If anyone is in need of letting go, it's you.
And Sonic, you aren't the only one in need of apologizing...so don't everyone solely gang up on Sonic. I received one apology for other matters by email and Zach apologized earlier in that thread. The problem is they initiated the apologies. I didn't have to demand them or ask for them.
I said I wanted to move past it because the incident is done and over with. I never said I didn't want an apology. I did, however, say that I wouldn't be surprised if I didn't get one.
This thread has become horribly divisive and we're getting ready to go into the greatest time of the year for every one of us. We all love the Oscars and film, regardless of how we feel about anything else, it's the ONE unifying thing between us all. Let's try to move past all of this. Let's say our apologies. Let's try to forget the animosity we feel towards one another after such a heated argument. And let's celebrate Oscar and every trashy, insincere aspect of the glitz-fest we came to this board to discuss in the first place.
Wesley Lovell
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." - Benjamin Franklin
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." - Benjamin Franklin
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Sonic Youth
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You have got to be shitting.Steph2 wrote:Since I was censored (and Sabin asked about it) I'm going to repost the last response from Sonic Youth, and my last response to him. If he wants to respond again, he can.
May I suggest the creation of an Ad Hominem Off-Topic forum, where we can post thoughtful and measured discussions about movies and the Oscars, communicating our aesthetic philosophies in the manner of personal insults?
But I did call it. Steph2 doesn't want to resolve anything on anyone's behalf. She's just in love with meaningless flame-baiting. And if the rest of you don't see it by now, you're blind.
"What the hell?"
Win Butler
Win Butler
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Sonic Youth
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Big Magilla wrote:Thirdly, I don't know why Sonic keeps dancing around his apology.
I didn't even know the thread was moved elsewhere. I thought it was just deleted.
Now that I know you moved it, Magilla, it then stands to reason that you've read it. And it's possible that you've gone over some of it more than once. So I'm astonished that you think I'm "dancing" around an apology. I was very clear and unambiguous. Do you honestly need further clarification? As I said - repeatedly - I will be happy to apologize to Oscar Guy privately, throuh PM. (Which, wouldn't you know it, I came here to do. And I found all this. Hoo-hah.) Just not PUBLICLY. I'd have thought this wouldn't be a tough distinction.
And under normal circumstances, I'd have no problem doing it for everyone to see. Under NORMAL circumstances. Everything I said to Oscar Guy, and only Oscar Guy, was my attempt to bring about as an end result - at the VERY LEAST - a détente of sorts. Instead, certain third parties who allege (in jest, I'm sure) that Oscar Guy's feelings and well-being is a top priority decided it would be best to disrupt any attempts to resolve this, and create a train wreck in its place - while onlookers get "entertainment" value. So if you're craving for a public apology from me, bite it.
EDIT: In the final sentence, "You're" was meant to mean "anyone" or "you all", meaning anyone who falls into this category. Not you specifically, Magilla.
As for censorship or not, I'm staying neutral on the matter. As I said in my final post, I was opting out of the conversation anyway. You'll just have to carry on with the John Stwart Mill Mutual Admiration Society without me. I was done there; I'm done here. As for "I wouldn't want an apology unless it was sincere", better take that to heart, Wesley. I hope others have apologized to you in private. If they haven't, that statement is something to think about in more ways than one.
Edited By Sonic Youth on 1200459034
"What the hell?"
Win Butler
Win Butler
Well, if I have to be really honest, I'm not sure who, between you and me, can be compared to an old lady more... As for your lessons in life, well, I live very well the way I do, thank you - I hope you can say the same.
And it's good to remember things. Especially when someone has lots of things - good and bad - to remember, as it happens to me on this board.
And it's good to remember things. Especially when someone has lots of things - good and bad - to remember, as it happens to me on this board.
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Big Magilla
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Ah, but I don't. I see the good and bad in everything including you, but you do have one fault. You cling to the past like an old lady remembering the time the next door neighbor walked by her without saying "good morning" twenty years ago. Let go of it. You'll feel better, Believe me.ITALIANO wrote:Big Magilla wrote:ITALIANO wrote:And frankly stop splitting the world between "innocent little things" and ME - always a good "scapegoat" if only because I am anti-American and don't hide it.
Actaully I think of you as quite innocent, quite pure in your thoughts that Americans are evil and the rest of the world is good. It must be so nice to see the world such black and white concepts.
Big Magilla - wake up, it's the rest of the world which thinks so, not just me. (Actually I don't exactly think this way, and even if I did, it would be about American politics, not about American people. I have other ideas about American people, but not that they are evil).
But of course you can always think that the rest of the world is wrong and America is right.