Re: I Side With...
Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:03 pm
But you were also talking about me. And really, I think I'm much softer now. With Americans, even. Still, I can't forgive ANYTHING... come on...
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I was mainly talking about criddic.ITALIANO wrote:I think I have changed alot.
Oh it does, more than in the US. But we are talking about people, and people here are less brain-washed, trust me.OscarGuy wrote: but doesn't the Catholic Church still have a strong hand in Italian politics? .
No.criddic3 wrote:I believe you are sincere that you think I am lost and misguided. So I will not take further offense at your insistence that everyone else is enlightened but us poor souls in America. What strikes me is that this is probably the prevailing wisdom in many European countries. Therefore, is it not possible that you are the one following false propaganda?
I believe you are sincere that you think I am lost and misguided. So I will not take further offense at your insistence that everyone else is enlightened but us poor souls in America. What strikes me is that this is probably the prevailing wisdom in many European countries. Therefore, is it not possible that you are the one following false propaganda? I suppose within one's own circle, a person can try to separate his thinking and feel totally independent, but we must acknowledge that many things influence what we think, why and how we feel about our formed opinions. To this end, I try to read and talk with people whose opinions may differ from mine. And occasionally I learn something new from such discussions. Generally I find that everyone has their own group-think, because they befriend mostly those who largely agree with their own views. This leads to the idea that theirs is the only truth and anything other than that must be crazy or blinded from the light. I can't say I am always right, but I try to stay informed as best I can. Many frequent visitors here might recall that I've said that before. It is the best I can offer to show that I try not to be too confident of my rightness, but if we don't hold our own opinions to the best of our abilities I think we become bland personalities that might as well talk to a wall.ITALIANO wrote:criddic3 wrote: It is meant to "bring us down to size" so that our jealous counterparts throughout the world can make themselves feel superio.
Yeah, sure, we are SO jealous..! My dear friend, you are certainly not stupid even - but you are so limited by the propaganda which your own country desperately imposes on its people, that I just feel sad, really. I know that you are not the only one, that many Americans think and feel like you do, yet your robotic, autonatic, artificial replies make me think, really. I will not be tough - it's not your fault, after all. But no country, my dear friend, has the right of doing this to the weak and the sensitive, no country can prevent a person from thinking as an individual, from being himself, from suffering maybe but at least being human. No country can turn a person into a monster. This could never happen in Europe, believe me. You don't even realize it, but your posts are like cries for help. I hope someone close to you will hear it and give you this help one day. I'm too far - I can only think of how inhuman the American systen can be, and feel deeply sorry for you. I only wish that one day you will break this invisible wall, and find yourself, your true self, on the other side. A big hug.
criddic3 wrote: It is meant to "bring us down to size" so that our jealous counterparts throughout the world can make themselves feel superio.
Where to begin...OscarGuy wrote:I'll wait for others to point to all the atrocities Americans have caused, including Abu Grahib, countless instances of police beatings and torture, waterboarding, thoughtless killing of civilians through war, Oklahoma City, Columbine, Aurora, etc.
We may not be as bad as those "terrorists," but we are not as generous as France, Canada, South Korea, Japan and countless other countries who don't murder in the name of oil, control or dominance in a region, etc. You're entirely narrowminded if you think that the U.S. isn't as war happy, violence-dependent and misogynistic. And claiming otherwise is the reason why Republicans can't empathize with the poor, downtrodden or innocent. I'm sure you'll be able to cite evidence to the contrary, but I'm sure we can point to evidence of the contrary in Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan. Compassion isn't a uniquely American philosophy and we are certainly NOT one of the most compassionate countries in the world, nor are we the least, but we certainly see greed as a greater value than community.
criddic3 wrote:Nice way to twist my words. Yeah, we're so dangerous that we generously help dozens of countries with aid, fend off their enemies (and ours) when they request help, etc. Yeah we're so dangerous that the last time we took any foreign land as ours was in the 1800s, and we gave most of it back. Do we kill others by blowing ourselves up on buses and trains? Do we fly airplanes into buildings and kill thousands of civilians ... on purpose? Do we chop off people's heads in the name of religion? Do our troops use children as shields? Do we stone our women when they are accused of adultery? No. We don't. We only declare war against despots and dictators who brutalize their citizens, threaten their neighbors and declare any civilization who is not Islam to be the Infidel and must be destroyed in the name of Allah. The only cases where we did not have those specific reasons was when an ally asked us for help, ex. South Vietnam, Kuwait. We are not the danger. History shows that we have been among the most generous nations in the history of the Earth. History shows that we defend freedom. You may not like it, but it is true. It is not all subjective. Equating America with Iran or North Korea or al Qaida is a lie.ITALIANO wrote:Good to know that September, 11 was a fair, justified attack then. Because America IS perceived as a dangerous country by many (with reasons, let me add it). You see, criddid - it's all subjective. As for the fact that in wars innocent people aren't "intended targets"... well, watch less American tv and study history - recent history, even.criddic3 wrote: War is a different kind of killing. Yes you do shoot or bomb people, but your target is an enemy deemed dangerous to society or has engaged in deadly confrontation with its people or those of its neighbors, etc. .
Case in point: Bin Laden didn't want us gone because we are dangerous to the world, but because he believed that we are not pure because we are not born into the radical version of his faith. We must die so the world can be pure. It's classic Hitler-ism. They do not believe in a "melting pot" society. The excuse was that "America is evil" somehow, but the truth is more sinister than that. Further, you insinuate that America intends to kill innocents when they conduct battles in war. This is blatantly false. Today's wars aren't clean like they once were, in terms of the rules of battle. Many of the enemy hide in populated areas in plain clothes using women and children as shields. Our military forces try to target the culprits strategically, but sometimes there are unintended casualties as a result of the kinds of tactics used by the enemy. And by the way, we didn't attack them. They attacked us. Repeatedly. USS Cole, Embassies, before 9/11.
Nice way to twist my words. Yeah, we're so dangerous that we generously help dozens of countries with aid, fend off their enemies (and ours) when they request help, etc. Yeah we're so dangerous that the last time we took any foreign land as ours was in the 1800s, and we gave most of it back. Do we kill others by blowing ourselves up on buses and trains? Do we fly airplanes into buildings and kill thousands of civilians ... on purpose? Do we chop off people's heads in the name of religion? Do our troops use children as shields? Do we stone our women when they are accused of adultery? No. We don't. We only declare war against despots and dictators who brutalize their citizens, threaten their neighbors and declare any civilization who is not Islam to be the Infidel and must be destroyed in the name of Allah. The only cases where we did not have those specific reasons was when an ally asked us for help, ex. South Vietnam, Kuwait. We are not the danger. History shows that we have been among the most generous nations in the history of the Earth. History shows that we defend freedom. You may not like it, but it is true. It is not all subjective. Equating America with Iran or North Korea or al Qaida is a lie.ITALIANO wrote:Good to know that September, 11 was a fair, justified attack then. Because America IS perceived as a dangerous country by many (with reasons, let me add it). You see, criddid - it's all subjective. As for the fact that in wars innocent people aren't "intended targets"... well, watch less American tv and study history - recent history, even.criddic3 wrote: War is a different kind of killing. Yes you do shoot or bomb people, but your target is an enemy deemed dangerous to society or has engaged in deadly confrontation with its people or those of its neighbors, etc. .
Good to know that September, 11 was a fair, justified attack then. Because America IS perceived as a dangerous country by many (with reasons, let me add it). You see, criddid - it's all subjective. As for the fact that in wars innocent people aren't "intended targets"... well, watch less American tv and study history - recent history, even.criddic3 wrote: War is a different kind of killing. Yes you do shoot or bomb people, but your target is an enemy deemed dangerous to society or has engaged in deadly confrontation with its people or those of its neighbors, etc. .
People do try explain that faith has less to do with seeing as it does with believing. Some people just feel it makes more sense that a higher being created the world than that there was simply a "big bang." Of course, this is sometimes met with derision by opponents. The science and the "facts of nature" that people say undoes the idea of God actually is quite explainable by the existence of a God. Anyway, I think there are aggressive people of both persuasions. Any topic that brings passion to people will inevitably have its more vocal defenders. I also tend to think that those who resort to simplistic (and confrontational) statements saying that religion equals peace and therefore should never consider anything to do with a violent nature are making a foolish argument. War is as much about defending something, and often saving lives, as it is also destructive. The death penalty kills, but is meant to rid the world of the worst evils man has to offer. A serial killer or mass murderer will never be cured, and if allowed to live may get into a position to do harm again. Why should he/she live after murdering innocent people? War is a different kind of killing. Yes you do shoot or bomb people, but your target is an enemy deemed dangerous to society or has engaged in deadly confrontation with its people or those of its neighbors, etc. It is not the same as going out and killing innocents. It may seem unfeeling to say "collateral damage," and it is a sad side-affect of war, but they are not the intended target. Therefore, it is not the same as murder. I don't think there are many people who enjoy war, at least not any sane person. But it's purpose is supposed to be protecting a country and its allies from whatever enemy threatens it. There is always an aggressor. We can hope and wish for total world peace, but as long as radical factions appear in the world, that will not happen.ITALIANO wrote:Well, but actually it's those who believe in something which hasn't been proven that should explain why they do believe in it...criddic3 wrote: instead of calmly explaining why they don't believe in it.
Plus, I dont know about America, but at least in Europe atheists are very calm and very balanced - unlike some religious people.
Speaking of Europe, I think more Americans should visit it. They should especially visit some countries on the Mediterranean - Italy included - which are full of very old buildings called temples, dedicated to gods nobody today believes in. A sad destiny, for these poor gods - scientific discoveries destroyed them one by one. Because people used to find a god for every thing they couldn't understand or explain, like storms for example, or the wind - and gods weren't necessary anymore when science gave a reason for all these facts of nature. Today, of course, we still don't know what happens after death, and we want to believe that SOMETHING happens. (Even I am, I guess, agnostic because of this).
Sonic Youth, I know that religions were and sometimes still are very aggressive, and violent even. But that's usually when they mix with politics, or with power. But as far as I know death penalty is approved by a large majority of Americans, and these are normal people, with no political agenda except their own conscience and beliefs. I find it absurd that one can be a devoted Christian yet at the same time strongly believe that killing a person is a good thing.
This is an absurd suggestion. As I've stated, the death penalty is to rid the world of the most heinous offenders. Generally I support life in prison, but for the absolute most horrible crimes the death penalty is appropriate. This kind of thing is not done lightly. A jury and judge have already sentenced a person to the death penalty. The Governor may issue a "stay" in order to review the case, but only if the evidence warrants that such an action should take place. Then-Governor Bush didn't arbitrarily order executions. A trial determined that outcome.You may not know it, but you are describing W circa Texas governship