Sweeney Todd: The Poll

[OscarGuy]

While not a fan of the movie, I do have to say the staging for A Little Priest was pretty good (though I had some problems with it).

However, I do notice that all of the sex-based humor seems to be gone.

"Ay. Oy. Sailor Boy.
Want it snuggly harbored.
Open the gate, but dock it straight
I see it lists to starboard."

"I prefer General." "with or without his privates?"

It's one of the things that really made the musical fun. It's amazing how much violence there is, but virtually no sex talk at all.

And while we're on it, another thing that seemed gone from the stage performance was how A Little Priest lost 100% of its Vaudevillian nature. While Forum was entirely Vaudeville-style humor, very little of Todd was, but it seems like Burton either didn't get it or didn't want it in his film, thus why, I think, dws, the song's visual representation didn't jive very much for you.

[dws1982]

A few more thoughts (Spoilers for those not familiar with the show or film):

- I'm not very familiar with the original Broadway show (although I know some of the individual songs), so take that into consideration.

- Whatever his flaws have been in the past, Tim Burton has never been short on imagination. Here though, he falls prey to that usual musical-adaptation trap of literalizing everything--during "A Little Priest", he feels the need to cut to the priest when they mention a priest, and so on. And he can't resist the urge to show the murders as graphically as possible, or long takes of Mrs. Lovett burning in the fire.

- I never understood the acclaim for the cinematography in Sleepy Hollow; Here it's more of the same--washed out, near-black-and-white image, dark scenes are so dimly lit that it's difficult to make out anything onscreen.

- It bears repeating, but the actress who played Johanna has an ear-splittingly awful singing voice. The quality of her voice isn't what makes it so bad, but she's one of those singers who always seems to be a few steps sharper than she's supposed to be.

- What's missing from te Sweeney Todd character (and the structure of the adaptation may be as much to blame as Depp's performance) is the sense of a man driven and consumed by his desire for revenge. Depp seems too muted, more brooding than consumed by something that has become larger than himself, and the screenplay itself doesn't really give any climactic build between his scenes with Judge Turpin. Sweeney misses the chance to kill him, then kills random people for awhile--which felt disconnected from the revenge plot here--and then finally got his chance to kill him, and did it. We see the acts, but no real motivation or development. They also never felt like genuine adversaries--it barely felt like they even knew each other.

- Helena Bonham Carter's singing voice feels too small for this, but she otherwise gives a pretty good portrayal of someone who is both delusional and amoral.

- Jamie Campbell Bower as Anthony, and Ed Sanders as Tobias, were the best vocally by a mile.



Edited By dws1982 on 1198822134

[Zahveed]

I will say, though, that I was pleasantly surprised by Johnny Depp's voice. I know others disagree with me, but for a non-singer he did quite well.

He has quite the rock-opera voice in my opinion which might explain why a lot of people here on the board don't like it.

[danfrank]

But thank God they didn't give more than one solo to that girl who played Johanna. Her voice--as annoying as the sound of a fork sliding across a porcelain plate--brings a new definition to the word shrill.

I concur. I had the thought that perhaps Judge Turpin was doing the world a favor by sequestering this girl and thus sparing everyone that ear-splitting voice!

I will say, though, that I was pleasantly surprised by Johnny Depp's voice. I know others disagree with me, but for a non-singer he did quite well.

[Sonic Youth]

Sonic, to your point about lyricists not getting enough credit: Have you ever heard the story about Oscar Hammerstein's wife speaking with a woman at a party? The woman said, Don't you love Ol' Man River, by Jerome Kern? Mrs. Hammerstein replied, My husband wrote O'l Man River; Jerome Kern wrote "Bum-Bum-BUM-bum".

Hammerstein is actually a great case for lyricists sometimes being the auteurs in composing teams. His Show Boat songs with Kern are far closer to the Rodgers and Hammerstein output than any of the Rodgers and Hart tunes (which seem to have come from another universe).

Thanks, Mister Tee. Never heard that.

But one doesn't need anecdotes. One need only to look at who is credited first in the billing. It's nearly always Composer & Lyricist. (Gilbert and Sullivan is an exception, and a very odd one considering that opera librettists were never given top billing alongside the composer.)

[dws1982]

Just saw this...will expand later.

But thank God they didn't give more than one solo to that girl who played Johanna. Her voice--as annoying as the sound of a fork sliding across a porcelain plate--brings a new definition to the word shrill.

[Mister Tee]

God, this argument's going to be worn out by the time I get around to seeing this movie. A few additions to the ongoing discussion:

Sondheim as composer/lyricist has never been in the category where his shows are universally known -- Forum maybe the only exception. Much as I've revered his work in the 35+ years since I saw Company, I don't think he's ever been more than a large-cult figure -- more Coen Brothers than Spielberg. Which is to say, it's not remotely odd that most non-afficiandos wouldn't be familiar with Sweeney Todd.

Penelope, like Sonic, I'm astonished you can include Follies in a list of Sondheim scores with not enough variety. In fact, I think all his earliest shows -- Company, Follies, Night Music -- have plenty of melodic variation. After that he became more operatic, and sometimes he can seem willful about withholding the simple pleasures less talented show-composers, so I can understand your feeling about the later shows.

Sonic, to your point about lyricists not getting enough credit: Have you ever heard the story about Oscar Hammerstein's wife speaking with a woman at a party? The woman said, Don't you love Ol' Man River, by Jerome Kern? Mrs. Hammerstein replied, My husband wrote O'l Man River; Jerome Kern wrote "Bum-Bum-BUM-bum".

Hammerstein is actually a great case for lyricists sometimes being the auteurs in composing teams. His Show Boat songs with Kern are far closer to the Rodgers and Hammerstein output than any of the Rodgers and Hart tunes (which seem to have come from another universe).

[cam]

At this time, there are over 263 posts in the Sweeney Todd thread. There are about this many with Dreamgirls last year. I find it difficult to understand that there is talk on musical theater sites that was overwhelming in its praise of ST.
Dan Frank sees it as I did. I hope someone else pays it with a bit more respect.

[danfrank]

Zahveed, I "enjoyed" it, at least in parts. I guess I wasn't enjoying myself while cringing whenever Helena Bonham Carter sang, however. The music is still glorious, even if it is truncated and not sung anywhere near its potential. This is a work that could have been so much more, as it was on stage (I saw it with Angela Lansbury and Len Cariou way back when). Burton's penchant for cartoonishness and, at least in this film, buckets of blood didn't work for me. I wouldn't call it a bad film, though. I just hope some other filmmaker takes a crack at this sometime.

[Zahveed]

I guess I'm the only one that actually enjoyed this adaptation despite its faults?

[anonymous1980]

Anyone who says that Depp or Carter are perfection in this need to listen to Angela Lansbury and Len Cariou or watch Lansbury and George Hearn. I gave my mother my copy of the Great Performances version just so she, who was also underwhelmed, could see how the show SHOULD be performed.

Sweeney Todd, I found out, will open here January 16th.

When I see it, I end up liking or loving it, I'd be more than happy to counter your lengthy dissertation Of course, if I end up hating it, which I doubt since I've listened to the entire soundtrack several times already, I'd be more than willing to back you up.

I've read all your posts on the film: Most of what you say are either a rehash of what you've been saying for the past year about the film after Tim Burton/Johnny Depp were announced as the director/star or you're demonizing Tim Burton for daring to make Sweeney Todd according to his vision which is different from the stage play.

I'll have more on this when I actually see the damn thing. I'd be more than happy to back up OscarGuy if I agree with him.

[Penelope]

Depp gave the character no depth. He simply brooded from beginning to end.

This I agree with entirely; to see one of our most inventive and original actors give such a bland, boring, thoroughly unexciting performance is just sad. He was even better in Finding Neverland than he was in Sweeney Todd. There was just nothing going on in his performance; it was like he locked his face into a scowl and it froze there.

However, I do disagree with OG's assessment of Helena Bonham Carter; yes, I don't know Lansbury's performance, and Bonham Carter isn't much of a singer, but her performance was, to me, simply dazzling--energetic and intoxicating, funny and sad, filled with a rich emotional depth that the rest of the film, frustratingly, lacked.

[OscarGuy]

I don't think I'm being harsh at all. I found listening to the people sing painful. I cringed several times. I felt no connection to the characters, which is something the stage version seems to do. When Todd dies I really didn't feel any emotional twang. Depp gave the character no depth. He simply brooded from beginning to end.

If you really want a problem-by-problem dissertation on why this film is inferior in every way to the stage version, from the horrid miscasting down to the hobbling of the score and even to the garbling of words, I can do it. It will take time, but I can do it. I really feel hopelessly disappointed in this film. I can't in good conscience give it a higher rating than maybe ** because it just doesn't deserve it. The few things that worked don't forgive the myriad of things that don't. Burton's complete lack of self-discipline when it came to the violence (none of it was really necessary) and his slavish attempt to make the story a fantasy were just a small smattering of the annoyances. Holy crap! The stage version seemed unusual, but it was based on a legend. It was designed to be realistic. The songs where Todd points to the audience and suggests that it could be any one of them next is absent. There's no modern allegory. There's no insistence that people behave or they'll succumb. Great lyrics wholly wiped away. I don't know how anyone can love this thing. I can understand those who were disappointed, but not those who call it a masterpiece.

I started out when this production was announced thinking it could be the greatest adaptation of all-time. Then Burton was announced. I didn't think he fit the production. Everything I feared would happen did. Pardon me if I express that. I don't think I'm being unnecessarily harsh. I even gave the film a compliment in my first post, although a brief one. Thankfully Danny Elfman wasn't allowed near the score, though there were several instances where the music picked up a few Burton-characteristic flourishes that were not written into the original score.

Anyone who says that Depp or Carter are perfection in this need to listen to Angela Lansbury and Len Cariou or watch Lansbury and George Hearn. I gave my mother my copy of the Great Performances version just so she, who was also underwhelmed, could see how the show SHOULD be performed.

Burton was wrong for this project and that fact is pure and simple. He chose actors who can act, but not actors who can sing. Cam and I agree that Toby was the perfect casting choice, but if I have to watch this film again, I'll have to look at the background because everyone spent the film staring bug-eyed at one another. I'm embarrassed all the time for people who act foolishly on TV. I was embarrassed for Depp a number of times. Watch his face when he has to hit a note higher than his limited vocal range...it's just sad.

Apologies for another long post. The sad part is there isn't a lot in my three posts that I've really duplicated and can go on for weeks probably listing my problems with the film. Give me Paul Thomas Anderson or even Steven Spielberg over Tim Burton for this film production any day. I just hope someone gives it the respect it deserves one day. Burton should have just left the music out and told the Christopher Bond stage version, not the Stephen Sondheim masterwork.

[cam]

Anonymous, you really have trouble accepting other people's opinions don't you? I thought the film adaptation was great and I can still accept OG's abysmal star and a half.

I have no problem accepting OscarGuy's opinion. I'm just pointing out that I thought he was just a wee bit harsh. OscarGuy already seemed ready to hate it and declare it a failure when Burton and Depp were announced to be involved.

I have to admit, I was much the same: personally, as I do not like Johnny Depp--for this reason : I believe that he can really reach me with only very few of the many characters he has played.

And the closest I came to liking a Burton film was "Ed Wood", truly a gem. So put them together again, added to the fact that I was completely apathetic to Carter.

And: I revered Sondheim, for the show's wonderful lyrics AND music, and I was prepared to dislike the film intensely. I heard an interview with SS , and it seemed to me that he was valiantly trying to be enthusiastic about the production, which hastened my dismissal of it as serious.

I said I was disappointed, though, which is a step up. I saw many scenes that were very impressive: the opening scene entering London, for example. I saw a huge failure in lighting and makeup too, to some unfortunate as well as some wonderful casting ---Toby was perfect. Some of the songs disappeared, many of the nuances were lost, and much of the real humour that was so delightful in the stage version. So I was a "purist"--leave well enough alone and treat it with respect.

The great thing is: those who see this film in twenty or more years will be educated with the songs left *in*, and the story as well. More will have seen the show on Broadway or in city theatres, or on video and DVD.

I didn't hate it, but I was kind of sad. There have been only a handful of great stage-to-screen musicals, and some of are downright shames. This wasn't THAT bad.



Edited By cam on 1198653218

[Damien]

Almost like Damien hating anything Sidney Lumet churns out.

I never hate blindly. :p

(I intently dislike most Tim Burton films, but somehow he made Ed Wood, which is a great and absolutely joyous movie, and off the top of my head probably the best film ever made about Hollywood. Maybe second only to Minnelli's Two Weeks In Another Town.)