Oscar Nominations

[Sabin]

Big Magilla wrote
I don't care what the word is, I'm talking about motivation, not a perceived result.

That was her motivation.

[Big Magilla]

I don't care what the word is, I'm talking about motivation, not a perceived result.

[Sabin]

Big Magilla wrote
The thing is that it is not category fraud because there was no benefit to her giving up a sure thing for something that was anything but a sure thing just for the principle of it in her mind.

Yes there was a benefit. The word is/was that by positioning herself as a Best Actress contender it puts her in line for more leading roles and leading role salaries and fewer supporting roles and character role salaries.

[Big Magilla]

Sally Kirkland's nomination was due to her self-promotion. Her nomination came at the expense of some highly regarded performances including those of Maggie Smith in The Lonely Passion of Judith Hearne, Lillian Gish inThe Whales of August, Faye Dunaway in Barfly, and Joanne Woodward in The Glass Menagerie.

Imagine Lillian Gish getting nominated instead of Sally and then losing to Cher. Good thing it didn't happen.

If nominated Gish would have won hands down. On the sentimental ticket. Two years later Jessica Tandy did just that.

Tandy did not win on sentiment alone and I doubt Gish would have either. Gish herself said what Eenusch said, after the nominations were announced, that she would rather not be nominated than have to go and sit there and watch Cher win.

[Big Magilla]

Lol if Williams thought she should be campaigned for Lead based on the size of her trailer, I almost wish she had been left off altogether. (If she felt that being nominated in Supporting would shoehorn her into supporting roles and salaries, that's a different matter.)

I didn't say that. I said that that was one of the things that convinced her she was the star of the film. I heard that in a podcast on Gold Derby which I normally don't listen to and probably shouldn't have that day either but once I heard it I looked at Williams' seemingly incredulous switch in a different light.

The thing is that it is not category fraud because there was no benefit to her giving up a sure thing for something that was anything but a sure thing just for the principle of it in her mind.

[mlrg]

From my social media feed everybody seems to love Barry Keoghan in the last couple of days. Actors posting and reposting about how he overcome his childhood and how great he is. Very similar to the kind of posts about Riseborough during nomination voting period.

[Reza]

Sally Kirkland's nomination was due to her self-promotion. Her nomination came at the expense of some highly regarded performances including those of Maggie Smith in The Lonely Passion of Judith Hearne, Lillian Gish inThe Whales of August, Faye Dunaway in Barfly, and Joanne Woodward in The Glass Menagerie.

Imagine Lillian Gish getting nominated instead of Sally and then losing to Cher. Good thing it didn't happen.

If nominated Gish would have won hands down. On the sentimental ticket. Two years later Jessica Tandy did just that.

[OscarGuy]

To add to Sabin's comments, The Woman King had a 94% Fresh rating on RT, 99% from users. 77 on MetaCritic means a less than rapturous response, but a pretty good take. User score there is 2.8. That's weird to be so out of whack with RT on a user scale.

On IMDb, it's not great, but not bad. 6.7 is the rating there, but it's the crosstabs that add some flavor. Women, the primary audience for the film, rated it 7.8 on average. Men, not the target demo, rated it 6.5. So 19K men saw the film but only 4,658 women. That sounds to me like a campaign by incels to demean the film and lower its scores everywhere. But a more telling score is from CinemaScore. That's a survey of opening weekend audiences, which are usually the target demo. A+.

The Woman King was nominated for 12 Best Picture (or equivalent) awards. Not all the best sources, but AFI and NBR both put it in their top ten. It got more Best Picture citations than Avatar, Nope, Babylon, Till, Decision to Leave, Black Panther, She Said, and The Whale. Only ten films got more Best Picture citations (including RRR, Aftersun, and Glass Onion).

In Best Directing, Gina Prince-Bythewood was 8th most nominated, even picking up a BAFTA nomination.

In Best Actress, Viola was cited 20 times, including SAG and BAFTA. That works out to 57.14% of the groups making selections. Only Cate Blanchett (35), Michelle Yeoh (35), and Danielle Deadwyler (29) had more nominations. Next down on the list was Mia Goth with 14.

Based on this, I'd say Viola Davis and her film were a lot more popular than they are being given credit for.

[Eenusch]

Sally Kirkland's nomination was due to her self-promotion. Her nomination came at the expense of some highly regarded performances including those of Maggie Smith in The Lonely Passion of Judith Hearne, Lillian Gish inThe Whales of August, Faye Dunaway in Barfly, and Joanne Woodward in The Glass Menagerie.

Imagine Lillian Gish getting nominated instead of Sally and then losing to Cher. Good thing it didn't happen.

[dws1982]

Lol if Williams thought she should be campaigned for Lead based on the size of her trailer, I almost wish she had been left off altogether. (If she felt that being nominated in Supporting would shoehorn her into supporting roles and salaries, that's a different matter.)

[Sabin]

Big Magilla wrote
Michelle Williams is not category fraud. The performance may be supporting but Williams' insistence on being considered for lead rather than supporting is because prior to and all during production of the film she was treated as the star with the best trailer, and all the other trappings that that entitled her to.

Best Actress: Nicole Kidman for Lion.

That being said, you're, like, actually making my point for me.

[Sabin]

flipp525 wrote
Maybe Viola was simply not a favorite of voters this year. She seemed like a filler nod all season to me anyway and I personally didn’t think she would make the finale lineup.

Here's my thinking about Viola Davis and The Woman King at large: when Everything Everywhere All At Once came out, I wasn't sure how it was going to do. I knew in my mind that when a film comes out early in the year, picks up a following, and hangs in there, that's a good sign. Put aside that it exhausted me, it's a weird film. But it proved to be the biggest hit in A24's history and they mounted a campaign involving several disparate narratives. It's a film about centering the Asian-American experience. It's about Michelle Yeoh getting a part that reflected her existence for the first time. It's about the comeback of Ke Huy Quan, someone we never thought about once he disappeared. They have successfully marketed the film as a major achievement that couldn't be ignored.

Seriously, why couldn't someone have done that with The Woman King? That film is also a hit that defied expectations, pulling in 200% of its projections on opening weekend. It turns Viola Davis into an action star at what? 57? Michelle Williams demands to be considered for lead because it helps with her asking price and roles she's offered. What does Viola Davis being nominated for The Woman King do for her asking price and roles she's offered? A lot. It's a major star is born performance by Thuso Mbedu. You've got the Gina Prince-Blythewood narrative. You've got the shooting it in Africa narrative...

Look, do I think it's the best film of the year? Or one of the ten? No. But I think somebody could have done a better job of convincing people that it one of the major achievements of the year. There was plenty on the table to work with here and they dropped the ball.

[Big Magilla]

Michelle Williams is not category fraud. The performance may be supporting but Williams' insistence on being considered for lead rather than supporting is because prior to and all during production of the film she was treated as the star with the best trailer, and all the other trappings that that entitled her to.

She felt that being nominated in support would be fraudulent especially since she was not only the favorite but the undisputed anticipated winner as well. She would rather have been considered in lead where she knew she would not be the favorite, and may not have been nominated at all, than in support where she felt uncomfortable given the circumstances as she saw them.

Danielle Deadwyler was snubbed largely on the basis of not enough people having seen her work. The subject matter was apparently too difficult for the masses to make an effort to see it. I know I've said the last-minute campaign for Andrea Riseborough pushed her out, but it's more likely that it was the nomination of Ana d'Armis that did that as it did at the Globes. Riseborough more than likely pushed out Viola Davis.

Davis was always a peripheral candidate. Voters didn't really like her movie. Woman King was seen by the multitudes but did not get a single nomination. I wouldn't feel too sorry for her, though. She'll be back. Like Meryl Streep, she's in the conversation every time she makes a movie.

I would have been happier if it were Emma Thompson (Good Luck to You, Leo Grande), Florence Pugh (The Wonder) or Jennifer Lawrence (Causeway), who got that slot. In fact, two of them at the expense of Williams would have been just fine with me if only if they had given d'Armis' spot to Deadwyler.

I don't mind Risborough's nomination as much as I do the way it was done which could backfire on all those who had a hand in it including Cate Blanchett.

[flipp525]

Maybe Viola was simply not a favorite of voters this year. She seemed like a filler nod all season to me anyway and I personally didn’t think she would make the finale lineup.

[OscarGuy]

How about both of them. Minus Andrea and Michelle (clearest case of category fraud in years), Danielle and Viola would have been the nominees. I have little doubt about that.