Unofficial Academy Awards Discussion Board

Well, maybe you live in another world, Flipp (we knew that anyway). But IN THIS WORLD the press, even the Italian press by the way, for months has been saying that it's a masterpiece, etc. Not just the reviewers - the press in general. The Italian distributors have sent journalists all kinds of articles which point out how great this film is, how important it is, how its depiction of slavery is unparalled...

I have bad news for you, Flipp. It's not a masterpiece.

ITALIANO wrote:

Sonic Youth wrote: I don't think it needs to be "definitive" to be great. .

And you are right. But it was sold this way

How and where was it sold this way? Please provide links to back-up your claim.

Sonic Youth wrote: I don't think it needs to be "definitive" to be great. .

And you are right. But it was sold this way, and reviewed this way by several critics. (The fact that it was based on one of the most important books on the subject, and a rare true story, probably contributed to this). One can't ignore it.

But as I said, it's a good movie, and a solid one. I can't deny that. And it's actually interesting - as you pointed out - that there have been so few American movies on such very American subject and historical fact. A subject and a fact which, by the way, have a strong dramatic, narrative and cinematic potential. I wonder if it's still a too sensitive issue in the US. Yet I'm convinced that a country - any country - must face its own past (we Italians know it even too well!), even the darkest aspects of its own past. Sooner or later it has to, and while not perfect, 12 Years a Slave at least tries to do that. And this is, of course, another reason why it will lose to Gravity - of all movies.

ITALIANO wrote:
And then there's Lupita Nyong'o. First of all, let me say that I wouldn't vote for her, of course. Now that I've seen all five, MY pick would be June Squibb. But on this board there are myths about her performance that I'd like to correct. First of all, hers isn't a short turn.

Thank you. Of COURSE it isn't. If her role seems "short", then it's only because she doesn't appear in the second half of the movie. If she were in as many scenes throughout the first half, it'd be considered a leading role.

Social, economical, psychological, sexual... I did think the movie captured all of it, either explicitly or implicitly in the undertones. No, it's not a thorough analysis, but I say it's as complex as it needs to be for its own purposes. This is just one person's account. If it's not the "definitive" movie about American slavery, I'd counter that I don't think it needs to be "definitive" to be great. We don't need a definitive movie on this subject. What we need is more movies, so a definitive picture can emerge. People are (unfairly if understandably) using a television miniseries made 36 years ago as a point of comparison because nothing has been made since then. Although 12 Years had its flaws, what made the movie great IMO was the palpable anger behind this material. Lots of movies depicting injustice tend not to be angry, but journalistic in their depictions.... letting the material speak for itself. I thought 12 Years was seething in its implication of whites, the wealthy, capitalism and America, and McQueen managed to keep control of his material nonetheless, so I don't agree that the movie was cold if by "cold" we mean "lacking in emotion" and "dispassionate". Its passion is what put it over for me.

But I can't get any more specific, because you're right.... I saw the movie 4 months ago and it's too "distant". But I hope to see it sometime next week before it loses to Gravity at the Academy Awards. I'm watching Philomena tonight and maybe Wolf of Wall Street tomorrow, and then I'll at least have see 8 of the 9 Best Picture noms before the Oscar broadcast. I've really missed writing about what I've seen in fuller detail, but life gets in the way sometimes.

Watching a movie like 12 Years a Slave now, so many months after it opened in the US, is - even for someone like me, who never reads the reviews before - a bit like the first time you go to New York or Paris - you have never been there, still in some ways you have, because you know so much of these places already. And of course I knew so much about 12 Years a Slave, too.

It's too late now to talk about a movie which for most of you must be so distant. Anyway - it's not great. It's good, it's effective (in parts), it's interesting - but it's not great. And I'm not even sure that it's so cold - it's not "epic", true, it's not Schindler's List, but then Steve McQueen isn't Steven Spielberg of course. And not all epics are good epics by the way - I kind of appreciated the movie's claustrophobic, extremely intimate feel.

There are more important reasons why this movie can't be the "definitive" movie about slavery. It gets the physical violence - and very realistically so - but not, except in a few moments (like the Woodard scene) and maybe not even intentionally, the complexity of this phenomenon, which was certainly social and economical, but also deeply psychological and even sexual. It's possible that for example that the potentially interesting relationship and dynamics between the Fassbender and Paulson characters is mostly left unexplored because both are seen from the limited point of view of the slaves. Still the movie is never as profound as it could have been, and as a result never truly emotionally challenging. (And by the way it's not like the black characters are written which more insight - including the leading one).

But as I said it's effective in a more, let's say, "primitive" way. and I must admit that the actors do what they can with what they are given. Ejofor has a big, expressive face and some very good moments - a lesser or less subtle actor would have probably vanished in such a non-active role. Some of his close-ups are especially strong. And as others have said, not only Fassbender but also other actors, black and white, in much smaller roles, are frequently impressive. It's a good, well' chosen cast.

And then there's Lupita Nyong'o. First of all, let me say that I wouldn't vote for her, of course. Now that I've seen all five, MY pick would be June Squibb. But on this board there are myths about her performance that I'd like to correct. First of all, hers isn't a short turn. She's in a good number of scenes - nothing to do with Beatrice Straight at all. Her part isn't as big as Julia Roberts's, I know, but Roberts is a co-lead. Nyong'o is a real supporting actress - simply. It's not even true that she just gets beaten and cries - in the context of this movie, she has one of the richest characters in sight. And the only one which makes the audience cry - or at least this is what I've noticed in the cinema I saw this movie in. She provides the movie with much-needed warmth.
It's not great acting, but we shouldn't forget that Best Supporting Actress has gone - and not centuries ago - to "perfornances" like Jennifer Hudson's in Dreamgirls and Renee Zellweger's in Cold Mountain. As an actress, Nyong'o may not be especially better than either, but she has a certain natural purity which reminds one of actresses in silent movies. And, of course, she's an icon of victimized beauty and black royalty - the fact that she's used this way by a black director would probably deserve a longer analysis.

Again: not great. But the idea that the Academy - and, in general, this board too - can consider this a lesser movie than Gravity is an insult to intelligence.

I mean, come on people, just imagine what Meryl Streep could've done with that scene!

Reza wrote: While she acts well the role is a cliche not helped by the obvious screaming and flailing about during the scenes of the notorious whipping.

How would you have wanted her to play this scene? I'm asking because there are many instances of actors playing against the grain of expectations and coming up with something special...but it seems to me that this is a scene where the actor pretty much has to hit certain notes, and not notes I'd call incredibly easy to play either, and I think Lupita Nyong'o performs them pretty splendidly.

Sabin wrote:Sorry, flipp.

Reza wrote
I agree a smallish role should not hinder an actor towards award recognition if the actor brings something new to the character (Beatrice Straight is a brilliant example). Lupita Nyong'o hardly does that. While she acts well the role is a cliche not helped by the obvious screaming and flailing about during the scenes of the notorious whipping. Her character brought nothing new to the situation which is not her fault at all. She played it obviously according to the written script and in tune with McQueen's direction.

I just have a very difficult time imagining somebody watching these scenes you cited and thinking "Eh, that's so obvious."

I have to agree with you, Sabin. What a facile interpretation of her performance.

I saw an interview with Lupita Nyong'o and she actually said that the scene in which she is whipped was the most difficult one for her to film because she was so (literally) naked and exposed in front of everyone. She said that she constantly had to tell herself that whatever small humiliation and discomfort she as an actress had to endure, it was nothing compared to what the real Patsey had to face which, she said, helped her inhabit the character in those moments.

But, again, those two scenes do not comprise her entire work in the film.

Sorry, flipp.

Reza wrote
I agree a smallish role should not hinder an actor towards award recognition if the actor brings something new to the character (Beatrice Straight is a brilliant example). Lupita Nyong'o hardly does that. While she acts well the role is a cliche not helped by the obvious screaming and flailing about during the scenes of the notorious whipping. Her character brought nothing new to the situation which is not her fault at all. She played it obviously according to the written script and in tune with McQueen's direction.

I just have a very difficult time imagining somebody watching these scenes you cited and thinking "Eh, that's so obvious."

Sabin wrote:NOTE: I'd like to thank Mister Tee for steering the conversation towards Beatrice Straight. To me, the only similarity that I can see is for those people who think Lupita Nyong'o basically had one kind of scene in the movie. Which involved whipping and screaming.

Well, I actually brought Beatrice Straight up first. Tee was responding to it.

flipp525 wrote:And not to de-rail, but was Talia Shire's performance in Rocky seen as some sort of sure-thing in the supporting category? I can't even remember anything about it except for her mousiness and wearing a red cap.

The critics groups (NY and BOR) were definitely setting her up for a win in supporting. I think in retrospect some of fumes in that tank, tho, could've been delayed appreciation for her performance in Godfather, Part II.

Mister Tee wrote: I saw my old college roommate last week, and he volunteered that the movie that’s disappointed him most all year is 12 Years. This is a guy with perfectly good taste, and he didn’t dislike the movie: he just thought it fell well short of what he’d been promised -- and what most the Oscar bloggers continue to say every day. I think this film is slipping into Brokeback Mountain/Social Network territory – so highly praised that many fans just find the actual film disappointing by comparison. (I know it’s holy writ in many places, including here, that homophobia killed Brokeback, and it no doubt played a part. But don’t discount people like my brother -- miles from being a homophobe, but someone who told me Brokeback was one of the most overrated movies he’d ever seen)

Great post Tee

I quoted this paragraph from your post because I’m completely tuned with your college roommate (and by the way with your brother as well).

Actually when I wrote my thoughts about 12 Years a Slave a few posts back I started by saying: “probably my expectations were too high, but this turned out to be one of the biggest disappointments of the year” and the discussion developed around my opinion about Lupita's performance (which is not her fault really, but the script and director)

Sabin wrote:But there's a difference between saying "I think her role is a little too smallish to warrant some of the attention she is getting" and "All she does it get whipped and scream."

I agree a smallish role should not hinder an actor towards award recognition if the actor brings something new to the character (Beatrice Straight is a brilliant example). Lupita Nyong'o hardly does that. While she acts well the role is a cliche not helped by the obvious screaming and flailing about during the scenes of the notorious whipping. Her character brought nothing new to the situation which is not her fault at all. She played it obviously according to the written script and in tune with McQueen's direction.

Comparisons to The Social Network and Brokeback Mountain (i.e. front-runners that didn't quite make it) are interesting, although at this point in their respective awards runs I was a bit exhausted of both films and wishing the wealth was being spread a little more around (oh, little did we know!). To contract, the further we head into award's season, I want 12 Years a Slave to sweep for more and more reasons. I'm not sure where it lives on my top ten list but I'm fairly sure it's a ways behind Before Midnight, Her, Frances Ha, and more, but I want it to sweep because the people who love 12 Years a Slave all seem to love it in the same way. Those who don't are rubbed wrong so differently!

And yet dismissing 12 Years a Slave as a whole somehow seems less perverse than dismissing Lupita Nyong'o. Let's be clear: I'm not saying she should have the Oscar delivered to her on a silver platter. I'm not even saying she's better than her costars. But there's a difference between saying "I think her role is a little too smallish to warrant some of the attention she is getting" and "All she does it get whipped and scream." Comparing her to Oprah Winfrey and Jennifer Hudson is incredibly

NOTE: I'd like to thank Mister Tee for steering the conversation towards Beatrice Straight. To me, the only similarity that I can see is for those people who think Lupita Nyong'o basically had one kind of scene in the movie. Which involved whipping and screaming.

flipp525 wrote: Btw, I'm not sure why Jennifer Hudson is being brought into this discussion. There is no comparison between the two performances or actresses.

Sorry...probably overreacted...here was why...

mlrg wrote: - If Lupita Nyongo' wins the oscar for this it will go down in my book as one of the most ridiculous wins ever. She has two scenes of which one of them is just screaming at being whipped.