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Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:08 am
by rain Bard
criddic,
I think it's fair of you to bring up that Sicko, while still a positively-reviewed film, may have had fewer out-and-out raves than some of Moore's previous films. I know there are some who called it his best film yet, but I suspect these were a distinct minority.
However, I disagree that it's inappropriate to place his films in the documentary category. Like them or not (I for one am not a fan of some of his techniques), if his films are as you say "propaganda for his own views" then this is at worst a distinction of degree, and not at all of kind. I believe that every documentary I have ever seen has an "editorial" or "commentary" component. If you are aware of documentaries that do not push forward their makers' views, I'd be very interested in learning their names.
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:22 am
by criddic3
Sonic Youth wrote:If Sicko recieved a 74 on Metacritic and a 93% on Rotten Tomates (if we go by the criteria you used re: Capitalism), and it's the 4th highest grossing documentary film at the box office... what exactly was so lackluster about it qualifies as a surprise that it was nominated?
Putting personal opinions aside and going by the objective data, it wasn't at all lackluster.
You're quite right. That does make it sound like it was better received. However, those numbers are averages of what constitutes "positive" reviews, which includes soft 3-star notices as well as strong 2 1/2 star notices. As I recall, even many of those reviews acknowledged reservations. I saw "Sicko," and some of it made Moore's points at least thought-worthy, but he's the most gimmicky "documentary" film maker out there which makes him hard to trust. I certainly do not agree with his politics, but sometimes his films are entertaining, and even occasionally thought-provoking.
While I have yet to subject myself to his latest, I have seen him in interviews promoting it. The guy is just way out-there. That's his right, but I don't think he deserves recognition for Documentary Awards when his movies by now are widely acknowledged to be propaganda for his own views (as in his own description: "op-ed"). These are filmed editorials, commentary, not documentation. Screenplay? Maybe. Documentary? No.
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Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:27 pm
by Heksagon
Sabin wrote:Sicko is my favorite Michael Moore film. I know it's not really seen as such by everyone but he is in it the least
I'm pretty sure that Moore is less in Roger & Me than he is in Sicko.
Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:29 pm
by Sonic Youth
If Sicko recieved a 74 on Metacritic and a 93% on Rotten Tomates (if we go by the criteria you used re: Capitalism), and it's the 4th highest grossing documentary film at the box office... what exactly was so lackluster about it qualifies as a surprise that it was nominated?
Putting personal opinions aside and going by the objective data, it wasn't at all lackluster.
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Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:04 pm
by Sabin
My surprise at his not getting through with a nod this year is that he was passed over when even his lackluster effort on Sicko got a nod.
I'm not trying to be dick-ish to you immediately upon your return -- good to see you, all that -- but Sicko is my favorite Michael Moore film. I know it's not really seen as such by everyone but he is in it the least and it enrages me like few of his films. I think it's a pretty great film.
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:23 pm
by criddic3
Sabin wrote:The reception for his newest was incredibly weak as well.
No, it wasn't.
You are correct. What I should have said was that Capitalism:A Love Story was not as rapturously received as some of his past films. On Metacritic, it rates a 61, getting it just over the "generally favorable" line (which starts at 60). Just one review is listed as a 100 score. At RottenTomatoes, it appears more friendly at 75%, but some of the quotes include excuses for giving it a pass by noting its op-ed style and saying that Moore again doesn't bring anything to persuade those not already in agreement with him.
My surprise at his not getting through with a nod this year is that he was passed over when even his lackluster effort on Sicko got a nod.
It's interesting also because Bowling for Columbine was a film that played in far fewer theaters in 2002 (about 248) than Capitalism did (almost 1000) in 2009, and still made a lot more money.
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Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:44 am
by Sabin
The reception for his newest was incredibly weak as well.
No, it wasn't.
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:55 pm
by The Original BJ
I can't say I'm bummed Capitalism: A Love Story won't be a nominee. I thought it had some interesting points, but it's definitely my least favorite Michael Moore film that I've seen. Its thesis seemed a little muddled, and, in a rarity for a Moore film, there are some rather tedious sections. (Moore films, I think, even when they go off the deep end, are usually at least amusing/watchable.)
But I haven't seen any of the finalists yet.
I just worked with one of the cast members from the original production of A Chorus Line, so I'm looking forward to seeing Every Little Step. I'm sure the Agnes Varda will be interesting -- here's to hoping she's finally an Oscar nominee in this category.
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:31 pm
by anonymous1980
criddic3 wrote:Hollywood Z wrote:Not only no Anvil (shame), but no Capitalism: A Love Story (not so much a shame). Wow, guess the Academy's not so warm to him after his 2003 acceptance speech and also when there's no republican in office.
Nice observation. I think the more people (in general) see of Moore over the years, the less they like or trust him, and his film making techniques. Even those who agree with some of his political stances can't stand him anymore. The reception for his newest was incredibly weak as well. Were Tyson, Anvil and Michael Jackson's This Is It disqualified?
This Is It is disqualified for Documentary Feature because it opened after the date of eligibility for documentary features.
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:52 pm
by Sonic Youth
Same ol' Criddic. Glad to see you're back!
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:59 pm
by criddic3
Hollywood Z wrote:Not only no Anvil (shame), but no Capitalism: A Love Story (not so much a shame). Wow, guess the Academy's not so warm to him after his 2003 acceptance speech and also when there's no republican in office.
Nice observation. I think the more people (in general) see of Moore over the years, the less they like or trust him, and his film making techniques. Even those who agree with some of his political stances can't stand him anymore. The reception for his newest was incredibly weak as well. Were Tyson, Anvil and Michael Jackson's This Is It disqualified?
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:33 pm
by flipp525
"Every Little Step" is wonderful and absolutely has my personal vote.
On the subject of the best this category has had to offer in past years, over the past weekend I rewatched "Common Threads: Stories from the Quilt" which won the Academy Award for Best Documentary in 1989 (and was personally nominated by me for Best Picture of the Year in the '89 round of 'Best by the Best'). I think it's everything a documentary should be: enveloping, stylistically straight-forward, melding archival footage with interviews, pictures and music, offering just the right mix of facts with human interest. It's a devastating piece of work about the early onset of the AIDS crisis and the NAMES Project which gave birth to the famous AIDS quilt. And Bobby McFerrin's background music is still unforgettable. Great companion piece to something like Larry Kramer's "The Normal Heart" or Randy Shilts' seminal "And the Band Played On".
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Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:58 am
by rain Bard
Makes me wish Defamation had made it onto the short-list, just to confuse everyone who began predicting this category in the 1990s and still holds to that old cliche from their formative prognosticating years.
Isn't it about time again for someone to post the "Odd Man Out" thread, where we try to guess which nominee for Best Director won't have haas his film in the Best picture slate?
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:04 am
by Sonic Youth
anonymous wrote:No Holocaust documentary makes this category a little less predictable.
Right, because there've been as many as two Holocaust documentaries nominated for this category in the past 10 years. Two. It's a real glut.
But I understand. It's been a full year since we've made AMPAS/Holocaust jokes and we just can't contain ourselves.
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:22 am
by Precious Doll
I am glad to see Michael Moore latest and by far weakest film not make the list.
It's a shame that neither The Queen and I or The September Issue are included.
I've seen three of the films (The Cove, Valentino and The Beaches of Agnes) and will probably watch Food Inc. over the next week.
The Beaches of Agnes is the best of the three I have seen but it is a lesser Varda work.
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