Hillary or Obama?

[Nik]

That's a really good point Damien. Thanks for the heads up. I just looked into her and her positions are outstanding. OK yes, she gets this expatriate's vote.

Man I love having dual citizenship

[Damien]

Anyway, I don't wanna defend Obama because I hate him too. I'm living in the U.K. now but I'll vote absentee in New York and it will be enthusiastically for Nader, who at least has the balls to criticize Israel and its terrorist army, and defend the terrorized Palestinians. Sure it won't "matter" in the elections, but it will matter to me. At least I won't feel dirty after I vote and I won't have to be a Clinton shill or an Omaba-maniac.

Aww, Nik, don't vote for Nader, who's become nothing more than a punch line.

Cynthia McKinney is running on the Green ticket, and as a member of Congress she was a leading opponent of the War on the Iraqi People, as well as the Bush/Chaney foreign policy in general. When she was in Congress (afraid of her independence and support for the oppressed, powers in the Democratic Party coalesced around a "moderate" Democrat to bring her down), the Palestinians had no greater friend than she. She's a tireless fighter for human rights around the world and also introduced articles of impeachment against Bush.

At this point, Ralph Nader is just a tired old megalomaniac. Cynthia McKinney is a vibrant and inspirational fighter, and she's to the left of Nader.

[Nik]

criddic!!...you're still around?? You stuck it out even though almost everyone here disagrees with you and gives you shit for it?! Wow, never thought I'd say this but I'm actually impressed. You probably don't remember me, I used to post here a bit and stopped posting almost two years ago, but I certainly remember you.

Seriously anyone who threatens to leave the board, or shut down the board, or loses their temper over something someone says, or has their feelings easily hurt should actually take a lesson from...(gulp!) CRIDDIC. The guy has been ridiculed throughout his tenure on this board (deservedly so, I mean no offense buddy, but the things you say are sometimes offensive, often uninformed and mostly ridiculous) and still he's here. Wow.

There's something to be said for fortitude.



Edited By Nik on 1204574033

[criddic3]

Thank you for stating the obvious, Criddic. I don't know what we'd do without your talents. Is that the best comeback the Right has? "Yeah well...it sure won't be easy, wait and see!", "It's not over yet, anything can happen between now and the election!" Why don't you just say, "Don't forget, it's going to be a Democrat versus a Republican for the Presidency!" It would be equally as obvious as your last post.

But then it was also "obvious" to you how beloved Rudy G was, and how well he would do in the election, and well, look how that turned out.

Obvious as it is, some people tend to forget that winning the nomination is not all Barack Obama has to do. It may seem like Democrats are the shoo-in win this year, but it was far more plausible to say so in the beginning of 2007 than it is now. John McCain can be a formidable opponent for Obama, assuming he gets the nomination.

He also has the backing now of a wide-range of Republicans, and also the Independent-Democrat Joe Lieberman.

So, yes, the obvious position to take right now is "wait and see." We have 8 months to go. "Anything can happen."

[Nik]

Really? Many real liberals and liberal publications would disagree with you. And anyway, even without Lewinsky, the fact is he DID bomb Iraq. And we should never forget it. All of these major players are equally as war-mongering and dismissive of human life (Bush, Cheney, McCain, Kerry, Clinton, Gore) And yeah Obama might be too, we don't know yet for sure. But we do know about the Clintons.

The major ones who aren't: Ralph Nader, Dennis Kucinich...that's all I've got.

[OscarGuy]

Let's get this clear. Clinton didn't bomb Iraq to distract from Lewinsky. He didn't need to. He was still intensely popular through the entire Lewinsky affair, so the need to bomb Iraq as a distraction is an idea cooked up by Clinton's detractors to cast as much bad light on him as president as they can.

[Nik]

Not obvious enough for me. I'll happily vote against the candidate who said he'd be willing to invade Pakistan.

And Hillary won't? Given all her other war mongering traits? Get real Sonic! If it came to that and she had to earn another four years in the White House, she'd do it. Just like she voted for the Iraq War to "earn her stripes" in this election. And nothing you say about "what that vote really meant" changes that. Everyone knows why she did it. And why is an abstract threat about Pakistan worse than a real threat against the Iraqi people? Oh and let's not forget her husband bombed Iraq when he was in office too (to distract from Lewinsky no less!) and she and Al Gore egged him on. And anyway, are you seriously denying that she (like Obama, and like many of the Democratic candidates) is really a conservative?

Anyway, I don't wanna defend Obama because I hate him too. I'm living in the U.K. now but I'll vote absentee in New York and it will be enthusiastically for Nader, who at least has the balls to criticize Israel and its terrorist army, and defend the terrorized Palestinians. Sure it won't "matter" in the elections, but it will matter to me. At least I won't feel dirty after I vote and I won't have to be a Clinton shill or an Omaba-maniac.



Edited By Nik on 1204566497

[Greg]

Jews will never vote for Obama, if he is the nominee the jews who traditionnally vote democrat will switch to Mccain.

What are you basing this on?

From what little I've read of avril's posts, I'd say Obama's middle name.

[Sonic Youth]

Not obvious enough for me. I'll happily vote against the candidate who said he'd be willing to invade Pakistan.

[Nik]

We must have another phone convo soon Damien, so I can tell you why I'm right I'll try to call you again this week. I can't take credit for "Kashy", but it's a cute enough nickname. And by the way, I hate "Nikki", so please let's let it end there. LOL.

Even though I hate them both, I'm voting for Obama in this poll just because Clinton is so obviously an even worse conservative.

Steph2 -- you're kind of awesome.



Edited By Nik on 1204526414

[Damien]

Why bother with Democrats trying to act like Republicans? Just go with the real villain (McCain) so we can properly attack him and form a real Left movement. Which is what American has lacked for the longest time and sorely needs.

That was my philosophy and plan when Reagan got elected, and we all know how well that strategy worked out.

Kashy? LOL

[Nik]

Oh NIKKI. Dude, I totally get your frustration with American politics -- and especially with the Democrats -- but let's keep some perspective please. Of course there's no fundamental difference between the two parties and of course they're both going to protect capitalism, white privilege and patriarchy. But in the vacillating inbetweeness we can always find a reason to "note vote for the other guy."

For example, as cowardly as the Dems are -- and as disappointing as the Clinton years were -- there is still a Supreme Court to worry about. For all his hideousness, Bill Clinton gave us Ruthie, the most liberal judge on the bench. And if any of the judges keel over or retire in the next four to eight years, I'd rather have a Democrat choosing a replacement than a war mongering asshat like McCain. And secondly...McCain??? Dude, OK, yes Hillary and Obama are douchebags but neither one of them wants to keep us in Iraq for another "hundred years" which McCain proudly declared might be necessary to "win the war."

Kashy. I used to feel the way you do but I've realized that American politics is just theater. It's a performance - two groups playing at sword-fighting to fool you into thinking that you've gone through a democratic process but in reality, there is no fundamental difference between the Democrats and the Republicans. None of this will ever change as long as America is controlled by corporations and a suffocating (and terrifying) form of capitalism.

And please, the Supreme Court tends to work itself out. More judges have been appointed by Republican Presidents than Democratic ones, and still we wound up with a good ruling on abortion and affirmative action. This is because the justices have life tenure and once they get through the political dog and pony show, they tend to do whatever the hell they want. Most of them won't be as nutty as Scalia. Souter for example completely betrayed the Republicans' expectations when he, Kennedy and O'Connor formed the "troika" and essentially ruled that a right to an abortion was protected by the Constitution. And let's face it, we really just got lucky with Ginsburg, there was no way she'd have gotten through if they all knew how liberal she really was (*woot* for Columbia Law...take THAT Yale!).

And as for war, are you kidding me? Hillary Clinton and her awful husband are just as war mongering as McCain and Bush - they're just less obvious about it. And Obama is only marginally better - still, no fundamental difference.

Why bother with Democrats trying to act like Republicans? Just go with the real villain (McCain) so we can properly attack him and form a real Left movement. Which is what American has lacked for the longest time and sorely needs. The ultimate destruction of the Democratic Party (helped along immensely by Bill and Hillary) would actually be the best thing for the Left.

Edit: Oh, I just realized Aakash probably won't read this until he gets back from Iran. Ah well.



Edited By Nik on 1204517437

[Akash]

Jews will never vote for Obama, if he is the nominee the jews who traditionnally vote democrat will switch to Mccain.

What are you basing this on? His recent comments have been just as nauseatingly pro-Israel as any other Democratic candidate. And he won the vote (and had the full support) of the large Jewish community in Chicago. He also won the Jewish vote in California, Massachusetts (despite Hillary winning those states overall) and Connnecticut (which he won by a LARGE margin). So yeah, not sure where your absolute statement is coming from.



Edited By Akash on 1204498629

[avril94]

Jews will never vote for Obama, if he is the nominee the jews who traditionnally vote democrat will switch to Mccain. If Hillary wins all the major states left like I think she will she should be the nominee those are the states the Dems need to win in the General, plus I don't believe Obama can carry Florida or Ohio in the General Hillary can.

[Akash]

Oh NIKKI. Dude, I totally get your frustration with American politics -- and especially with the Democrats -- but let's keep some perspective please. Of course there's no fundamental difference between the two parties and of course they're both going to protect capitalism, white privilege and patriarchy. But in the vacillating inbetweeness we can always find a reason to "note vote for the other guy."

For example, as cowardly as the Dems are -- and as disappointing as the Clinton years were -- there is still a Supreme Court to worry about. For all his hideousness, Bill Clinton gave us Ruthie, the most liberal judge on the bench. And if any of the judges keel over or retire in the next four to eight years, I'd rather have a Democrat choosing a replacement than a war mongering asshat like McCain. And secondly...McCain??? Dude, OK, yes Hillary and Obama are douchebags but neither one of them wants to keep us in Iraq for another "hundred years" which McCain proudly declared might be necessary to "win the war." And for me personally, the reason moderates and independents (like that jackass Bill Maher) always cite to credit McCain ("he actually fought in a war!") is the same reason I think should disqualify him. I am completely against the legalized murder that occurs with militarism and war. I don't think it's noble at all to be a soldier and I certainly don't want someone like that running my country.

Now don't get me wrong. I fully support voting Green and I might even do it myself (especially in CT where it won't matter) but I'm just saying, let's not say there's absolutely no reason to vote against McCain if Hillary or Obama are the opposition.



Edited By Akash on 1204497553