My Trip to Italy
It's easy to find it - it's in Campo San Barnaba. Tourists (especially American tourists) falling into the canals was a rather frequent event in Venice; it still happens, but less often, maybe because everyone now knows how dangerous it can be - the water, which even in the 50s certainly wasn't sparkingly clean, is now heavily polluted because of the growing industrial activity in Mestre, a nearby city. Even the most courageous stuntman would have some doubts today, I guess - Hepburn did it by herself.
Fans of Summertime look for the Venice of the movie and of course they can easily find it - the city, clearly, is still the same, only with more tourists today. Some even book a room at the Pensione Accademia thinking it's the one where Hepburn stayed in the movie (and where, during shooting, she famously clashed with local star Isa Miranda); but actually that's the only place that doesn't really exist, as it is a composition of different locations, only one of them relatively close to the Accademia.
For obvious reasons, Venice is, I think with New York, Paris, maybe Rome, one of those cities whose role in movies has been most important - not just as a beautiful background but, because of its atmosphere, as, I'd say, a "character". Books have been written about that, and for those into movies visiting Venice is an even more fascinating experience for this reason. You turn around a corner, or you lose your way, and suddenly you see Katharine Hepburn falling into the canal, Alida Valli following Farley Granger, Julia Roberts jogging, Tony Musante announcing to Florinda Bolkan that he will die, Adelina Poerio in a red raincoat, etc...
Edited By ITALIANO on 1286781290
Fans of Summertime look for the Venice of the movie and of course they can easily find it - the city, clearly, is still the same, only with more tourists today. Some even book a room at the Pensione Accademia thinking it's the one where Hepburn stayed in the movie (and where, during shooting, she famously clashed with local star Isa Miranda); but actually that's the only place that doesn't really exist, as it is a composition of different locations, only one of them relatively close to the Accademia.
For obvious reasons, Venice is, I think with New York, Paris, maybe Rome, one of those cities whose role in movies has been most important - not just as a beautiful background but, because of its atmosphere, as, I'd say, a "character". Books have been written about that, and for those into movies visiting Venice is an even more fascinating experience for this reason. You turn around a corner, or you lose your way, and suddenly you see Katharine Hepburn falling into the canal, Alida Valli following Farley Granger, Julia Roberts jogging, Tony Musante announcing to Florinda Bolkan that he will die, Adelina Poerio in a red raincoat, etc...
Edited By ITALIANO on 1286781290
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Big Magilla
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Venice is quite objectively one of the most beautiful cities in the world. Unique, absolutely. But yes, it is NOT cheap, especially by Italian standards; there are much less interesting cities in other European countries which are also absurdly expensive - Oslo, for example - but in Italy Venice is really an exception (and you realize it for sure when you have to pay 60 euros for four coffees at the famous Florian cafe). But of course it's because it is now a place for tourists, or for very rich foreigners who have bought a house there - the REAL Venetians do still live there, but less than before, and certainly not in or around St Mark square.
I live about one hour and a half by car from Venice, and I feel lucky; going there, especially to its less touristic areas (the Jewish ghetto for example) is still a deep emotional experience. But of course I avoid it on weekends or during holiday periods.
I live about one hour and a half by car from Venice, and I feel lucky; going there, especially to its less touristic areas (the Jewish ghetto for example) is still a deep emotional experience. But of course I avoid it on weekends or during holiday periods.
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Big Magilla
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- Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 3:22 pm
- Location: Jersey Shore
Nice travel journal, Big Magilla. I'm glad that you liked Italy (though, as I told you, the weater hasn't been always sunny). And how many places you went to in just eleven days! You definitely saw the best of central Italy, and, of course, Venice is the highlight of northern Italy. But I guess that especially the bus trip from Venice to Assisi must have been a bit tiring...
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Big Magilla
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- Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 3:22 pm
- Location: Jersey Shore
Italy was great. The people, the places, the food, all were fantastic. I didn't meet Italiano, but our tour guide could have been his cousin - she was perfectly attuned politically.
Day 1 - Arrived at Oakland Airport early, but flight delayed two hours due to weather in New York. Cousin Joe and sister-in-law Carol waited for me at JFK. We got our boarding passes together, met sister-in-law Beverly, her friend, Gay and Gay's cousin, Katrin, whose flight from Virginia on the same airline I chose was canceled, forcing her to take Amtrak. Then met travel organizer, Bernadette; her daughter Lynette; friends Barbra (or "she who will not touch a handrail until she falls twice on steep steps"), the "rod" lady, Donna and her husband; and Bill, "the Pope's buddy".
Beverly turned out to be the "six-footer" who required an aisle seat, though she's really only 5', 11'' but has long legs. Carol and she switched places so she could have an aisle seat. I sat next to her. Both of us had people in front of us who kept their seats reclined the entire time, the rude woman in front of me even during takeoff and landing, which you are not supposed to do. Otherwise it was a nice flight. The food was great for airline food. For dinner I had "fresh" salmon, a nice light pasta and veggies.
Day 2 - Arrived in Rome, greeted by marvelous Silvana, our travel guide, and Giuseppe, our driver who pretended not to speak English so he wouldn't have to answer stupid questions. Met other tour members including two Japanese-Americans from Bay Area (Fremont); two delightful sisters from Houston, 67 year-old Barbara and 60 year-old Suzanne; "Danny Boy" and his wife from Fairport, New York; a couple married 44 years, but holding hands like newlyweds; Millie and Billy, a Canadian couple celebrating their 55th wedding anniversary; a family of four from Kansas (a father, mother, pregnant daughter and son-in-law) and two women from Los Angeles whose luggage got lost. We got nice view of City of Rome on way to hotel in heart of City.
I went walking with Joe. I took pictures at Fountain of Trevi which didn't come out, although I have a short video of me tossing a coin over my shoulder.
We had a welcome dinner with singing troubadours trying to sell their CD. When asked for requests, the guy from Fairport, New York asked for "Danny Boy", thus his nickname.
Day 3 - Toured Sistine Chapel and a few other museums within the Vatican - breathtaking, but you probably already know that. We were joined by Sherry and Linda, two young widows from Omaha, who missed the connecting flight to Rome due to JFK weather imposed delays on airport in Omaha.
We then got a nice surprise. Bill, "the Pope's buddy" kept lording it over everybody that he had a special pass to have an audience with the Pope. The sisters from Houston and the family from Kansas did too, but they didn't make such a big deal of it. The surprise was that the audience was held in St. Peter's Square, where one quarter of the square was roped off - enough to accommodate 20,000 people, while the remainder of the Square was open to 60,000 more who could see the Pope enter on his Popemobile, which he did. Our Vatican guide, Oreste, led us right up to the fence where we had a better view than anyone. We received the Pope's blessing as he came toward us and again from the podium, which was broadcast live on a large screen TV. The only thing Bill got to do that the rest of us didn't was shake the Pope's hand. I took lots of pictures, but unfortunately these didn't come out either. Beverly and Joe promised to send me theirs.
Then toured the Coliseum, the Forum, the Pantheon and other ancient ruins with Oreste,
Went to dinner at restaurant Brian (Joe's son) had recommended with Joe, Carol, Beverly, Gay and Katrin. Unfortunately when Joe asked the guy at the hotel for directions, he crossed out the name and address and we wound up at a similar sounding restaurant, which was decent enough. Unfortunately the women all eat like birds. Carol stuffs herself with snacks all day long and the others barely eat anything so Joe and I ordered less ourselves than is considered "proper" at a restaurant in Italy where you are expected to order at least two dishes - a pasta and a fish or meat. We had pasta and salad as if we were back home.
Carol was a little miffed at me because I made them walk down the Spanish Steps on the way. Breathtaking views, especially at night, invigorating walk, but she wasn't having any of it. I promised we'd go a different route on the way back, but Joe and Beverly made her walk up the Steps on the way back which really ticked her off.
Day 4 - Left Rome, arrived in Pisa, again my photos didn't take. I bought a disposable camera. It worked. We ended the day in Lucca. Got nice photo of me standing on the wall of the ancient ruins with a fifty foot drop behind me. It's in the disposable. Dinner at the hotel was included.
Day 5 - Left Lucca for San Gigimignano (Jimmy Yah-no), another ancient city where it rained. I bought an umbrella. Carol bought a pair of shoes that she didn't check until we got to Florence - discovered she had two left shoes.
We arrived in Siena after lunch. We visited several churches including the Basilica of St. Catherine - one of Italy's two patron saints. A basilica is a cathedral where the body of a saint is entombed on, under or near the main altar. St. Catherine is famous for convincing the Pope to return to Italy after an absence of 70 years spent in France. Her body is almost perfectly preserved, though the mask they made of her face is a bit hideous. Got some nice pictures of the basilica as well as the church where St. Catherine actually prayed.
We arrived in Florence. Dinner at the hotel was included.
Day 6 - Explored Florence. Pictures and films do not do the sculptures justice, especially David. The 30 foot original is in the Academy of Fine Arts. A perfect replica is in Signoria Square outside of what is now the City Hall. The piece de resistance, however, is the tour optional Church of the Holy Cross where Michelangelo, Galileo, Danti (Dante), the man who sculpted the original Statue of Liberty and more are entombed. I took pictures of the main ones, including all of those I just mentioned.
Joe and I went looking for the other restaurant recommended by Brian. It's just across the Ponte Vecchio, the famous walking bridge on which apartments and shops are built and street singers serenade passers-by at night.
After returning to the hotel, we ordered a taxi and took it to one of the other bridges and walked to the restaurant where we ordered a full course meal. The best part was the pasta - a light cantelloni. After walking it off a bit, we stopped at another hotel and ordered another taxi. The taxi system in Florence is phenomenal. The hotel keys the order into a computer and gets a print-out saying which taxi will pick you up and how long it would take. In both instances, it was just two minutes.
Day 7 – We left Florence, stopped in Verona on the way to Venice.
I found this the only somewhat disappointing aspect of the tour. The whole "old" section of the City, which is where the tours go, is built around Romeo and Juliet. That's nice, except that Romeo and Juliet were fictional characters based on real life lovers who lived in Verona, but whose names no one knows. You know where I'm going with this now, don't you?
"Juliet's balcony" is a fake, it wasn't even part of the tiny square it's housed in, though the balcony that's been moved there does date from the 12th Century. There are no "letters to Juliet" on the wall below, only bubble gum left there by tourists. There is, however, a very real "Society of Juliet" that answers letters to Juliet, but you have to present them to the women who answer them and make a donation in order for them to respond. Barbara from Houston had such a letter, written by her eight year-old actress/singer grand-daughter who wanted to know if her nine year-old Houston stage co-star with the "beautiful blue eyes" was the right one for her. Not only was Barbara able to present the letter, but Silvana (our tour guide) also promised to write a postcard in her "macaroni" English for her, and did so before we left.
We arrived in Venice before the floods. I don't remember where we ate, but we were at the Eastern end of the island in a nice residential area. It was very quiet, except for the soccer game at the soccer stadium next door, which ended shortly after our arrival. No cars, no bikes allowed in Venice, which has almost 500 foot bridges, of which we walked at a least a quarter of.
Day 8 - Toured St. Mark's Church and Square. High tides caused slight flooding in Square and Church, walking benches were put up for us to walk across so we wouldn't be in water up to our knees. Walked back to hotel, back to town and took a boat back to hotel, then had dinner at a nice local restaurant.
Day 9 - Left Venice in the nick of time as in another hour the tides would be took high for the boat to go under the bridge. We arrived in Ravenna on way to Assissi. Did some wine tasting there - four different kinds. Linda, one of the widows from Omaha, showed me what I was doing wrong with my camera and from then on it worked like a charm.
Arrived in Assissi, which was still celebrating St. Francis' Day (the day before), a national holiday celebrating Italy's other patron saint. Visited Basilica of St. Clare in which is housed the actual Crucifix that "spoke" to Francis, the young soldier weary of the Crusades, telling him to "fix the crumbling church". Thinking it was the physical church the Crucifix was housed in, he repaired the church (La Madonna de Los Angeles or Our Lady of the Angels, for whom Los Angeles is named), after which he realized he was being asked to repair the crumbling Roman Catholic Church. He gave away all his worldly possessions and dedicated his life to the poor, as did St. Clare whose order of nuns became the Carmelites (Santa Clara is named after her). San Antonio is named after their friend and fellow saint, Anthony of Padua, and San Francisco is, of course, named after St. Francis himself. The actions of Francis and his followers humbled the Pope who went against the advice of his Cardinals and Bishops and instead of branding Francis a heretic, became one of his biggest supporters, after which, of course, the rest of the Church followed.
We then went to the Basilica of St. Francis. After he died while still a young man (46), Francis was canonized (made a saint) in two years, which is still a record, and his magnificent tomb was built below what was to become the first of two basilicas, the second built over the first.
Dinner at the hotel was included.
Day 10 - We left Assissi, went to Orvietto, another ancient city, then left for Rome.
Because St. Peter's Basilica was closed due to the Pope's audience the first day, we went to see it on the last. Got to see the Pieta, but not the bodies of Popes Pius IX and John XXIII which were behind the main altar because they are in the process of being canonized. We did visit the Tombs of the Popes (previously called the Catacombs) and did see the tombs of various popes and members of royalty ranging from Queen Christina to John Paul II.
Had farewell dinner at dinner-theatre where we were entertained by opera singers. The blond soprano sang an aria from "Carmen" while flirting with various members of the audience. I remember her wrapping her shawl around me but I don't recall her sitting on my lap, though people claim to have the pictures to prove it.
Day 11 - Left hotel at 7 A.M. (10 P.M. the night before my time) and got home after 1 A.M. the next morning, more than 26 hours later.
The flight from Rome was delayed an hour and customs took another hour, so I got to the ticket counter at the airline just as my flight was taking off. I presented my paperwork including the documentation that the airline had canceled my later flight and put me on one that was too tight. The clerk and the guy next to him were very sympathetic but their supervisor was a total jerk. He told them to book me the same flight the following day, but I stood my ground and got them to look for alternatives. They booked me on a flight from New York to Boston and then from Boston to San Francisco. I had to take the BART train from San Francisco to Oakland but got there after midnight. The shuttle bus stops running at midnight. The driver told me his bus was "out of service", to take the local bus across the street. I hailed a cab and got him to take me directly to the off-airport lot where my car was waiting. It turns out the lot I parked at was not the one I had the discount for, but they honored it anyway.
Would I recommend a Globus tour? Absolutely! Would I recommend booking a flight on the same airline. Never!
Edited By Big Magilla on 1286683323
Day 1 - Arrived at Oakland Airport early, but flight delayed two hours due to weather in New York. Cousin Joe and sister-in-law Carol waited for me at JFK. We got our boarding passes together, met sister-in-law Beverly, her friend, Gay and Gay's cousin, Katrin, whose flight from Virginia on the same airline I chose was canceled, forcing her to take Amtrak. Then met travel organizer, Bernadette; her daughter Lynette; friends Barbra (or "she who will not touch a handrail until she falls twice on steep steps"), the "rod" lady, Donna and her husband; and Bill, "the Pope's buddy".
Beverly turned out to be the "six-footer" who required an aisle seat, though she's really only 5', 11'' but has long legs. Carol and she switched places so she could have an aisle seat. I sat next to her. Both of us had people in front of us who kept their seats reclined the entire time, the rude woman in front of me even during takeoff and landing, which you are not supposed to do. Otherwise it was a nice flight. The food was great for airline food. For dinner I had "fresh" salmon, a nice light pasta and veggies.
Day 2 - Arrived in Rome, greeted by marvelous Silvana, our travel guide, and Giuseppe, our driver who pretended not to speak English so he wouldn't have to answer stupid questions. Met other tour members including two Japanese-Americans from Bay Area (Fremont); two delightful sisters from Houston, 67 year-old Barbara and 60 year-old Suzanne; "Danny Boy" and his wife from Fairport, New York; a couple married 44 years, but holding hands like newlyweds; Millie and Billy, a Canadian couple celebrating their 55th wedding anniversary; a family of four from Kansas (a father, mother, pregnant daughter and son-in-law) and two women from Los Angeles whose luggage got lost. We got nice view of City of Rome on way to hotel in heart of City.
I went walking with Joe. I took pictures at Fountain of Trevi which didn't come out, although I have a short video of me tossing a coin over my shoulder.
We had a welcome dinner with singing troubadours trying to sell their CD. When asked for requests, the guy from Fairport, New York asked for "Danny Boy", thus his nickname.
Day 3 - Toured Sistine Chapel and a few other museums within the Vatican - breathtaking, but you probably already know that. We were joined by Sherry and Linda, two young widows from Omaha, who missed the connecting flight to Rome due to JFK weather imposed delays on airport in Omaha.
We then got a nice surprise. Bill, "the Pope's buddy" kept lording it over everybody that he had a special pass to have an audience with the Pope. The sisters from Houston and the family from Kansas did too, but they didn't make such a big deal of it. The surprise was that the audience was held in St. Peter's Square, where one quarter of the square was roped off - enough to accommodate 20,000 people, while the remainder of the Square was open to 60,000 more who could see the Pope enter on his Popemobile, which he did. Our Vatican guide, Oreste, led us right up to the fence where we had a better view than anyone. We received the Pope's blessing as he came toward us and again from the podium, which was broadcast live on a large screen TV. The only thing Bill got to do that the rest of us didn't was shake the Pope's hand. I took lots of pictures, but unfortunately these didn't come out either. Beverly and Joe promised to send me theirs.
Then toured the Coliseum, the Forum, the Pantheon and other ancient ruins with Oreste,
Went to dinner at restaurant Brian (Joe's son) had recommended with Joe, Carol, Beverly, Gay and Katrin. Unfortunately when Joe asked the guy at the hotel for directions, he crossed out the name and address and we wound up at a similar sounding restaurant, which was decent enough. Unfortunately the women all eat like birds. Carol stuffs herself with snacks all day long and the others barely eat anything so Joe and I ordered less ourselves than is considered "proper" at a restaurant in Italy where you are expected to order at least two dishes - a pasta and a fish or meat. We had pasta and salad as if we were back home.
Carol was a little miffed at me because I made them walk down the Spanish Steps on the way. Breathtaking views, especially at night, invigorating walk, but she wasn't having any of it. I promised we'd go a different route on the way back, but Joe and Beverly made her walk up the Steps on the way back which really ticked her off.
Day 4 - Left Rome, arrived in Pisa, again my photos didn't take. I bought a disposable camera. It worked. We ended the day in Lucca. Got nice photo of me standing on the wall of the ancient ruins with a fifty foot drop behind me. It's in the disposable. Dinner at the hotel was included.
Day 5 - Left Lucca for San Gigimignano (Jimmy Yah-no), another ancient city where it rained. I bought an umbrella. Carol bought a pair of shoes that she didn't check until we got to Florence - discovered she had two left shoes.
We arrived in Siena after lunch. We visited several churches including the Basilica of St. Catherine - one of Italy's two patron saints. A basilica is a cathedral where the body of a saint is entombed on, under or near the main altar. St. Catherine is famous for convincing the Pope to return to Italy after an absence of 70 years spent in France. Her body is almost perfectly preserved, though the mask they made of her face is a bit hideous. Got some nice pictures of the basilica as well as the church where St. Catherine actually prayed.
We arrived in Florence. Dinner at the hotel was included.
Day 6 - Explored Florence. Pictures and films do not do the sculptures justice, especially David. The 30 foot original is in the Academy of Fine Arts. A perfect replica is in Signoria Square outside of what is now the City Hall. The piece de resistance, however, is the tour optional Church of the Holy Cross where Michelangelo, Galileo, Danti (Dante), the man who sculpted the original Statue of Liberty and more are entombed. I took pictures of the main ones, including all of those I just mentioned.
Joe and I went looking for the other restaurant recommended by Brian. It's just across the Ponte Vecchio, the famous walking bridge on which apartments and shops are built and street singers serenade passers-by at night.
After returning to the hotel, we ordered a taxi and took it to one of the other bridges and walked to the restaurant where we ordered a full course meal. The best part was the pasta - a light cantelloni. After walking it off a bit, we stopped at another hotel and ordered another taxi. The taxi system in Florence is phenomenal. The hotel keys the order into a computer and gets a print-out saying which taxi will pick you up and how long it would take. In both instances, it was just two minutes.
Day 7 – We left Florence, stopped in Verona on the way to Venice.
I found this the only somewhat disappointing aspect of the tour. The whole "old" section of the City, which is where the tours go, is built around Romeo and Juliet. That's nice, except that Romeo and Juliet were fictional characters based on real life lovers who lived in Verona, but whose names no one knows. You know where I'm going with this now, don't you?
"Juliet's balcony" is a fake, it wasn't even part of the tiny square it's housed in, though the balcony that's been moved there does date from the 12th Century. There are no "letters to Juliet" on the wall below, only bubble gum left there by tourists. There is, however, a very real "Society of Juliet" that answers letters to Juliet, but you have to present them to the women who answer them and make a donation in order for them to respond. Barbara from Houston had such a letter, written by her eight year-old actress/singer grand-daughter who wanted to know if her nine year-old Houston stage co-star with the "beautiful blue eyes" was the right one for her. Not only was Barbara able to present the letter, but Silvana (our tour guide) also promised to write a postcard in her "macaroni" English for her, and did so before we left.
We arrived in Venice before the floods. I don't remember where we ate, but we were at the Eastern end of the island in a nice residential area. It was very quiet, except for the soccer game at the soccer stadium next door, which ended shortly after our arrival. No cars, no bikes allowed in Venice, which has almost 500 foot bridges, of which we walked at a least a quarter of.
Day 8 - Toured St. Mark's Church and Square. High tides caused slight flooding in Square and Church, walking benches were put up for us to walk across so we wouldn't be in water up to our knees. Walked back to hotel, back to town and took a boat back to hotel, then had dinner at a nice local restaurant.
Day 9 - Left Venice in the nick of time as in another hour the tides would be took high for the boat to go under the bridge. We arrived in Ravenna on way to Assissi. Did some wine tasting there - four different kinds. Linda, one of the widows from Omaha, showed me what I was doing wrong with my camera and from then on it worked like a charm.
Arrived in Assissi, which was still celebrating St. Francis' Day (the day before), a national holiday celebrating Italy's other patron saint. Visited Basilica of St. Clare in which is housed the actual Crucifix that "spoke" to Francis, the young soldier weary of the Crusades, telling him to "fix the crumbling church". Thinking it was the physical church the Crucifix was housed in, he repaired the church (La Madonna de Los Angeles or Our Lady of the Angels, for whom Los Angeles is named), after which he realized he was being asked to repair the crumbling Roman Catholic Church. He gave away all his worldly possessions and dedicated his life to the poor, as did St. Clare whose order of nuns became the Carmelites (Santa Clara is named after her). San Antonio is named after their friend and fellow saint, Anthony of Padua, and San Francisco is, of course, named after St. Francis himself. The actions of Francis and his followers humbled the Pope who went against the advice of his Cardinals and Bishops and instead of branding Francis a heretic, became one of his biggest supporters, after which, of course, the rest of the Church followed.
We then went to the Basilica of St. Francis. After he died while still a young man (46), Francis was canonized (made a saint) in two years, which is still a record, and his magnificent tomb was built below what was to become the first of two basilicas, the second built over the first.
Dinner at the hotel was included.
Day 10 - We left Assissi, went to Orvietto, another ancient city, then left for Rome.
Because St. Peter's Basilica was closed due to the Pope's audience the first day, we went to see it on the last. Got to see the Pieta, but not the bodies of Popes Pius IX and John XXIII which were behind the main altar because they are in the process of being canonized. We did visit the Tombs of the Popes (previously called the Catacombs) and did see the tombs of various popes and members of royalty ranging from Queen Christina to John Paul II.
Had farewell dinner at dinner-theatre where we were entertained by opera singers. The blond soprano sang an aria from "Carmen" while flirting with various members of the audience. I remember her wrapping her shawl around me but I don't recall her sitting on my lap, though people claim to have the pictures to prove it.
Day 11 - Left hotel at 7 A.M. (10 P.M. the night before my time) and got home after 1 A.M. the next morning, more than 26 hours later.
The flight from Rome was delayed an hour and customs took another hour, so I got to the ticket counter at the airline just as my flight was taking off. I presented my paperwork including the documentation that the airline had canceled my later flight and put me on one that was too tight. The clerk and the guy next to him were very sympathetic but their supervisor was a total jerk. He told them to book me the same flight the following day, but I stood my ground and got them to look for alternatives. They booked me on a flight from New York to Boston and then from Boston to San Francisco. I had to take the BART train from San Francisco to Oakland but got there after midnight. The shuttle bus stops running at midnight. The driver told me his bus was "out of service", to take the local bus across the street. I hailed a cab and got him to take me directly to the off-airport lot where my car was waiting. It turns out the lot I parked at was not the one I had the discount for, but they honored it anyway.
Would I recommend a Globus tour? Absolutely! Would I recommend booking a flight on the same airline. Never!
Edited By Big Magilla on 1286683323