New Developments III

rain Bard
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Post by rain Bard »

I think the numbers of American insured/not are more like 85% and 15%, not 95% and 5%. Same "tyranny of the majority" principle however.
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Post by Heksagon »

I have been trying to follow the health care reform, but it isn't so easy. The topic interests me, but it's difficult to find information on it. It is easy to find a lot of unbiased research on things like business cycles and economic history, if you are prepared to dig deeper than columns at New York Times, but on health care, such material doesn't seem to be available, at least not so easily. Most of the stuff that I can find is on very specialized topics, or too focused on how a policy should work, rather than how it does work, and almost invariably, only dealing with one country, rather than comparing systems in different countries. There is, however, no shortage of partisan propaganda, but that is another matter.

The discussion that I have been following gives me the impression that both sides of the debate are completely insane. However, this may be because I cannot properly make the difference between rhetoric and actual policy. Some of partisans of the Democratic Party, in their rhetoric, criticize the American health care system by implying that the European health care systems work better; yet the Democratic Party, in its policy, is not offering anything like the health care that exists in Europe, other than the extremely vague principle that all people should be somehow covered. The Republicans, in turn, accuse the Democrats for trying to introduce European-style health care systems to United States.

It appears to me that the Democratic Party is mainly trying to expand the scope of the present health care framework, rather than trying to actually "reform" the existing framework. Is the Obama reform somehow similar to the one which Mitt Romney passed in Massachusetts some years ago?

As a European, I have grown up to believe that the American health care system is very much like Michael Moore portrays it in Sicko. However, I no longer believe that to be the case; there are problems everywhere, and the fact is that a film like Sicko could be done in almost any country of the world. In fact, one of the reasons why it is so difficult to reform the American health care system is that the majority of Americans are satisfied with the health care they are receiving.

The health care systems in Europe and United States are very different, and they are driven by different philosophies. I do not know how sensible it is even trying to compare them.
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Post by Big Magilla »

cam wrote:We are following the struggle for universal health care in the US, as we live with it. When you need it, it is there and cheap, or free. I would rather be taxed for health care than anything else.

I would really like to know : how many of you support Obama's policy, and how many are opposed?

Correct me if I'm wrong, Cam, but isn't the Canadian system of universal health care single payer, i.e. the government?

What Obama proposes is universal in coverage but not in payer - he wants to retain the current system of private insurers but add a government funded option that will pay for itself unlike Medicare which doesn't. How this is to be done is what is open for debate. The problem is that a lot of the Congress, almost all Republicans, but some Democrats as well, have their campaigns funded in large measure by the all-powerful insurance and drug industries. In the end we may get a bill in which the insurance companies are mandated not to deny coverage and other things that Obama wants done, but the public option may not go through.

If is does go through, I'm not at all sure I would take advantage of it. I like my HMO. If, however, I move out of the HMO's coverage area, I may just want to be able to choose a government run option - it all depends on what's in it.

Obama got off on the wrong foot, I think, by appealing mostly to people's compassion and emphasizing that what we need to do most is insure that the 5% of the country without any insurance is covered. Unfortunately most of the 95% that are covered don't give a damn about the 5% who aren't.

Obama is now changing his focus to appeal to that 95% by saying what we need to do is to lower the cost for existing insured as well, and to guarantee that those who are insured remain insured when they move or change jobs and are not denied coverage for pre-existing conditions they may or may not know they have.

The Republicans, more than ever, are the party of "no" so if health care reform is going to happen, which it needs to, it will be without the Republicans unless public opinion is overwhelmingly in support of the final bill, whatever it turns out to be, so that they are shamed into voting for it to save their own political necks.

Despite the support of the American Medical Association, the nurses' union, the AARP and other well regarded groups, the fearmongers and their tools including that idiot former Alaska governor who can see Russia from her house, have been fueling public opinion against change by falsely claiming that one of the bills supports the use of death panels that will determine whether or not to pull the plug on Grandma depending on how much her treatments cost.

The yelling and screaming by the insurance company tools/fools at these town hall meetings and not allowing the opposition to speak, have rightly, I think, been compared to tactics used by the Nazis in their rise to power but its not nice to call your fellow Americans Nazis so most liberal politicians including Obama are so far, anyway, biting their tongues. But as Abraham Lincoln famously said, you can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.




Edited By Big Magilla on 1250033673
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Post by OscarGuy »

He does have a website now, that supposedly debunks a lot of the criticism leveled at the plan, but since it's a white house-sponsored page, the right wingers aren't about to let it stand as any kind of corrective tool.

My problem with these protestors is that they can very easily fix the issue: If you don't have a valid license showing that you are a citizen of the community in which the Town Hall occurs, you can't get in the door. It's that simple. For valid citizens only!

But, although I don't care for my own state after it's support of Neanderthal Bush and his shapeshifting follow up McCain, I did hear that Claire McCaskill's town hall held up state went by without such outbursts, so there's something to be said for restraint...and maybe she should give some tips to her colleagues on how to appropriately stage one of these town halls.
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Post by Sonic Youth »

I don't think anybody can truly answer that, because I don't think anyone truly knows what Obama's health policy is. We have an 1,100 page bill to contend with, and it's not the only bill out there. Because of that, propagandists with their own agendas can put their own interpretations of what's in it, and who's the wiser? I think the town hall disruptions are appalling, but a lot of the blame has to be put on Obama himself. For someone so allegedly in touch with the people, he's done an atrocious job communicating his health care plan.



Edited By Sonic Youth on 1250025175
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Post by cam »

We are following the struggle for universal health care in the US, as we live with it. When you need it, it is there and cheap, or free. I would rather be taxed for health care than anything else.

I would really like to know : how many of you support Obama's policy, and how many are opposed?
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Post by Big Magilla »

Lovely comments from the morons in the peanut gallery:

I wouldnt doubt that the guys a plant by the dems in order to make the protestors look bad.

I'd put nothing past these leftwing serpents.

YES IT IS HIS RIGHT TO CARRY!

woooohoooo way to go guy with the gun!




Edited By Big Magilla on 1250016008
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Post by Greg »

This is almost impossible to believe even after seeing it. A little while before Obama is scheduled to appear at a town hall meeting in New Hampshire, the authorities allow a man with a gun strapped to his leg to remain on church property nearby.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxI3npnmny0
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Post by Greg »

Paul Krugman comments on the most surreally idiotic opposition to health care reform I have yet read:

And just as an illustration: a number of people have pointed this out, but here’s the latest in the “Obama’s health reform will kill people” news: Investor’s Business Daily — which poses as a reputable source of financial information — opines that

People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn’t have a chance in the U.K., where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless.

That would be Stephen Hawking, British professor, who was born in the UK and has lived there for his whole life.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/
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Post by Big Magilla »

I am a veteran but I don't use the VA.

Years ago it had a bad rep. It's only recently that things have supposedly improved. Still, from what I hear from friends, most patients see nurse practitioners not doctors which I suppose is fine most of the time.
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Post by Greg »

Howard Dean was filling in for Keith Olbermann last night; and, in a segment on health care he interviewed an author of a book on the Veteran's Administration who claims that the VA provides the nations best health care for the lowest cost per patient. That really surprised me.

Here's the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVBrFt5fYW4

Are there any veterans on this site would care to share their thoughts on the VA?
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Post by Greg »

Here's a fascinating video of Obama's former personal physician talking about health care reform:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQYiEM8Rz4s
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Post by OscarGuy »

The ACU sticks its foot in it and tries to backtrack. So funny.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20090717/pl_politico/25072
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Post by Greg »

Here's an interesting excerpt of Dennis Kucinich questioning a "health care expert" at a House committee hearing on health care reform.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jkLVCxEmOY
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Post by Mister Tee »

taki15 wrote:The single fact that the voters of Alabama and Oklahoma voted to sent these two lunatics to represent them at the Senate, should be reason enough to expel these states from the Union.

Too bad Inhoffe isn't a member of the Judiciary comitee. That would have upped the entertainment value to eleven.
Pretty much the sole nice thing I can say about Senator Shelby is that he's not the complete disgrace his fellow Alabaman is. Oklahoma, though, as you suggest, has double the wingnut pleasure.
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