Israel - "More Sinned Against Than Sinning"?

[taki15]

I agree with Trevor Noah.

Yes, Israel has the right to defend itself. Absolutely. Just like I have the right to defend myself against a little kid with a plastic baseball bat. I could just walk away, talk him down or defend myself by taking away his baseball bat. What I don't do is beat the shit out of him. What Israel is doing is like a grown-ass man beating the shit out of a little kid for hitting him with a plastic baseball bat.

Uhhh... launching rockets to civilian targets isn't the same as a kid hitting you with a plastic baseball bat.
I mean, I live in perhaps the most pro-Palestine EU country and even our media think this time Palestinians (or to be more accurate, Hamas) are the ones responsible for this mess.

That's interesting to hear because I'll echo Sabin and say that the way that we are hearing this reported over here is definitely more pro-Palestinian than I can recall.

I guess the good thing is that both are inching towards a more objective coverage.

[Sabin]

This thread is unbelievably toxic.

[Reza]

Sabin I'm very happy for you that your grandmother survived the Holocaust. And for all the others who survived.

But frankly they are no different to every person who survives any kind of oppression or attack which is meant to harm, maim or kill. Today there are most probably many grandmothers who survived yesterday's attacks in Palestine. Unfortunately many along with innocent kids did not. That word really does describe the Israeli government and that bitch you call your VP whose recent speech on this ongoing issue was downright deplorable. Brownnosing bitch!!

[Sabin]

OscarGuy wrote
Tell me the better way to approach it and I will take it to heart, but right now, I'm not really coming up with anything comparable or fitting.

I want to understand something: are you literally saying "I cannot think of a better way to describe this situation than to compare Jews to Nazis?"

The first 90% of your post when you didn't say that Jews have become Nazis seemed totally fine to me. Really thoughtful stuff. Couldn't really find a single thing I disagreed with. The only moment when that happened is when you wrote that Jews have become like Nazis. I've already explained below why comparing Jews to Nazis is not a great conversation starter. I'm not going to do it again. I shouldn't have to do it in the first place.

Again, just want to make it clear that I'd be hard-pressed to find anything I disagree with written by anyone on this thread except the party where weirdly everyone is super chill with comparing Jews to Nazis.

[OscarGuy]

I'm sorry, Sabin. It's perhaps the easiest example and ties directly into the oppressed becoming the oppressors concept. There just isn't another easy or commonly-known example out there. We don't see the Armenians oppressing anyone else, nor the Greeks, or the Native Americans. How do you make that kind of connection when there isn't a recent enough example that it would make sense to someone who isn't familiar with it.

Yes, Nazism has become an unfortunate shorthand for genocidal fascists, but at least when people were complaining about the Hitler comparisons with Trump, you had the likes of Mussolini or Franco or Hirohito that you could reference as shorthand instead.

But if you look at what has been happening in the West Bank or other parts of Palestine, you see barbed wire walls, squalid living conditions, check points where Palestinians are detained and humiliated because the Israelis have been raised to believe that Palestinians are vile and contemptible. What other comparisons can be made? We can't just stick our heads in the sand about this. That's why the situation in the Middle East continues to deteriorate.

Tell me the better way to approach it and I will take it to heart, but right now, I'm not really coming up with anything comparable or fitting.

[Okri]

I agree with Trevor Noah.

Yes, Israel has the right to defend itself. Absolutely. Just like I have the right to defend myself against a little kid with a plastic baseball bat. I could just walk away, talk him down or defend myself by taking away his baseball bat. What I don't do is beat the shit out of him. What Israel is doing is like a grown-ass man beating the shit out of a little kid for hitting him with a plastic baseball bat.

Uhhh... launching rockets to civilian targets isn't the same as a kid hitting you with a plastic baseball bat.
I mean, I live in perhaps the most pro-Palestine EU country and even our media think this time Palestinians (or to be more accurate, Hamas) are the ones responsible for this mess.

That's interesting to hear because I'll echo Sabin and say that the way that we are hearing this reported over here is definitely more pro-Palestinian than I can recall.

[Sabin]

I'm going to give a little advice to anyone who somehow, amazingly thinks the best way to have a conversation with a Jewish person about Israel is to compare them to Nazis: Maybe don't.

If you just desperately have to say "Jews have become Nazis," if there's no other way to make your point, then just maybe don't open with it. If you do have to mention it, just be aware that it's not the best conversation starter. It might ruin an opportunity to hear what a Jewish person has to say about the situation, many of whom might share almost all your sentiments but feel less inclined to share because they're justifiably asking themselves asking themselves how they feel having been compared to Nazis. It's one of those sentences like "Your Mother's a bitch." that just clearly isn't going to do anything positive. And I get it! We're not talking about all Jews. Just some Jews. The ones over there.

And also, it's triggering for people who have Holocaust survivors in their family. Like mine. My grandmother is a Holocaust survivor. I just got sent a picture of her having lunch today. And I would love to have a conversation with anyone who is critical of the Netanyahu administration/long-standing Israeli policy but when someone makes that comparison, I can't help it, I have to ask myself how I feel about it.

Anyway, there's just better ways to do it. Pretty amazing how so many people are totally fine with saying it.

[OscarGuy]

My personal choice of this year's live action animated shorts was The Present, which acutely showed the utter disdain and dehumanization Palestinians feel under the malicious indignance of the Israeli government. Benjamin Netanyahu has done more to destabilize the Middle East than anyone else there, including the hostile-to-Israel forces in that area.

Every since I learned about the forcible relocation of Jews into Israel, I've felt that the Palestinians gets a raw deal. Both Judaism and Islam see this region as a part of their religious heritage and that's understandable. Regardless, Israel does not have the right to do unto others as has been historically done to them. A historically oppressed people have the absolute right to lives their lives without harassment, isolation, and degredation. They do not have the right to inflict that same ignominy on others.

Does Israel have a superiority complex? Absolutely. Has it been egged on by the United States for decades. Absolutely. That said, I've more frequently seen Jews denounce what Netanyahu is doing than I have seen Christians denounce it. Historically, it's Christianity that has been at war with the Muslim world for longer and with more malice than anyone else.

Is peace in the Middle East possible? Not presently. Netanyahu must be removed from power before any lasting peace could be negotiated in that region.

The question I would pose to anyone defending Israel in this situation is this: If you had been around before Hitler started exterminating Jews in Germany and the Jewish people had forcefully and violently rebelled against Hitler's Germany would you be defending them or vilifying them? Do you have to see history in reverse to know how you would act? If so, then I'm afraid you're part of the problem, not part of the solution.

[Reza]

I agree with Trevor Noah.

Yes, Israel has the right to defend itself. Absolutely. Just like I have the right to defend myself against a little kid with a plastic baseball bat. I could just walk away, talk him down or defend myself by taking away his baseball bat. What I don't do is beat the shit out of him. What Israel is doing is like a grown-ass man beating the shit out of a little kid for hitting him with a plastic baseball bat.

Uhhh... launching rockets to civilian targets isn't the same as a kid hitting you with a plastic baseball bat.
I mean, I live in perhaps the most pro-Palestine EU country and even our media think this time Palestinians (or to be more accurate, Hamas) are the ones responsible for this mess.

The point is WHY has this "mess" been allowed to happen? Why has it been going on for 40+ years? And by what right has Israel been allowed to gradually take over Palestinian land? How come all these rockets have not caused more casualties on Israelis while the Israeli "retaliation" has killed hundreds of Palestinian men, women, mostly children and brought down entire buildings and homes? Is it that the Hamas are bad shots while the Israeli's are good shots? Take a minute and think about that.

Why not, for once, focus on the bigger issue instead of calling out Hamas or whoever having cast a stone at "helpless and terrorised" Israel?

[taki15]

I agree with Trevor Noah.

Yes, Israel has the right to defend itself. Absolutely. Just like I have the right to defend myself against a little kid with a plastic baseball bat. I could just walk away, talk him down or defend myself by taking away his baseball bat. What I don't do is beat the shit out of him. What Israel is doing is like a grown-ass man beating the shit out of a little kid for hitting him with a plastic baseball bat.

Uhhh... launching rockets to civilian targets isn't the same as a kid hitting you with a plastic baseball bat.
I mean, I live in perhaps the most pro-Palestine EU country and even our media think this time Palestinians (or to be more accurate, Hamas) are the ones responsible for this mess.

[Reza]

Reza, you started this thread by calling for a serious conversation on Israel as well as accusing this board of somehow being suspiciously silent for not discussing it (despite it being a notoriously quiet period of time on the board). You proceeded to call the Israeli government Nazis. You've called the United States government Nazis. You smirkingly provided a solution where the Israeli people transplant themselves to the United States with a laughy-smiley face. You also make aspersions about how none of our media or politicians are paying attention to this when that is absolutely not the case. We're seeing a marked change in coverage as we speak.

Make a decision. Do you want to have a conversation or do you want to provoke?

Sabin I'm not trying to provoke anyone. And yes I provided a "solution" with a smiley face. It's a joke although in hindsight the perfect solution (wishful thinking of course) that should resolve all the points of my "accusations", which by the way is pretty much the view being taken by many countries towards Israel and the United States. Not just now but for decades. I'm sorry if this view or my words have ruffled your feathers. The word "Nazi" has a very powerful connotation. We all saw what they did to the jews. Well this is no better especially coming from a nation that should have known better. The American government, the self-proclaimed saviour of the world, has systematically sided with Israel all these years not for the love of its people but purely for its own vested interest in the Region - a huge American military base in Israel - in order to have a presence in that part of the world. By virtue of siding with Israel and turning a blind eye towards the suffering of the Arab nation their behaviour is just as despicable as Israel.....and the Nazis before them.

As someone elsewhere explained that this whole mess in the Middle East has nothing to do with religion at all. Its a case just like white settler colonialism of years ago by the Brits, the Dutch, the French......and how America was settled by white people who displaced the Indians. The Indians used arrows to defend themselves against marauding white men just as Hamas are using rockets to defend themselves against the marauding Israelis who are hellbent on grabbing Palestinian land and displacing the Arab people. It's the same old story, with slight variations, of history repeating. No lessons learned. Just greed, might and aggression showing its fangs.

Well it has to end. Enough is enough. Has to end NOW!!

[Sabin]

Reza, you started this thread by calling for a serious conversation on Israel as well as accusing this board of somehow being suspiciously silent for not discussing it (despite it being a notoriously quiet period of time on the board). You proceeded to call the Israeli government Nazis. You've called the United States government Nazis. You smirkingly provided a solution where the Israeli people transplant themselves to the United States with a laughy-smiley face. You also make aspersions about how none of our media or politicians are paying attention to this when that is absolutely not the case. We're seeing a marked change in coverage as we speak.

Make a decision. Do you want to have a conversation or do you want to provoke?

[anonymous1980]

I agree with Trevor Noah.

Yes, Israel has the right to defend itself. Absolutely. Just like I have the right to defend myself against a little kid with a plastic baseball bat. I could just walk away, talk him down or defend myself by taking away his baseball bat. What I don't do is beat the shit out of him. What Israel is doing is like a grown-ass man beating the shit out of a little kid for hitting him with a plastic baseball bat.

[Reza]

Solution for Israel-Palestine Conflict

RELOCATE ISRAEL INTO UNITED STATES

Highlights:

- Israelis are most loved by Americans
- Americans will welcome Israelis into their homes with open arms
- America has plenty of land to accomodate Israel as its 51st State
- Israel can have a really safe Jewish state surrounded by friendly states
- America will no longer have to spend $3 billion tax payer money per year for Israel's defence
- The transportation cost will be less than 3 years of defence spending
- Palestinians will get their land and life back
- The Middle East will again be peaceful without foreign interference
- Oil prices will go down, inflation will go down and the whole world will be happy.

[Reza]

And this latest news:

Biden administration approves $735 million weapons sale to Israel.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... democrats/

Beyond pathetic. The United States shamelessly egging on their fellow-Nazi government of Israel.