Should "Gone with the Wind" go the way of the Confederate flag?

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OscarGuy
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Re: Should "Gone with the Wind" go the way of the Confederate flag?

Post by OscarGuy »

I'll counter with the following article:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/act ... ebecc985fe

It is all about context and, as this author notes, it might be more instructive not just on understanding the South's continued racial and historical repression, but as an idea of why and how to help foster a conversation between Southerners about how to move forward and progress.
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Re: Should "Gone with the Wind" go the way of the Confederate flag?

Post by Sabin »

I'm going to link to this article.

http://www.vulture.com/2017/09/gone-wit ... eracy.html
Treating Gone With the Wind as a relic that should be walled off in museums, as former New York Post critic Lou Lumenick suggested in a 2015 piece, may seem like the corrective necessary after the Academy Awards its garnered, its staggering financial success, and decades of worship. It would be simpler, under this guise, to brand Gone With the Wind as a Confederate monument that, despite its gorgeous construction, is too saddled by racism to enjoy, and should be resigned to the past. But that is a half measure. It lets modern Hollywood off the hook for displaying similar, casual racism, albeit in different forms, and modern white people from understanding the thorny truths the film holds. Gone With the Wind is not only the most successful Hollywood film about slavery, it’s the most instructive. Not because it dutifully recreates actual history — far from it actually. Better than any film, Gone With the Wind is a searing, accidental portrait about the American mythology around slavery. The mythology Gone With the Wind extols about cheery, simple-minded slaves who are unerringly faithful to their abusers and the beauty of a lost South isn’t trapped in the amber of another time. It exists today in the loathsome, venomous beating heart at the core of American life. If Gone With the Wind were consigned to the past, it would make it easier for many to forget how indicative it is of our present.
I don't think 'Gone with the Wind' should go the way of the Confederate Flag. I think it should go the way of 'Birth of a Nation.' A film that must be known for its racism as much as or more than any other contribution it brings to the table. Just as 'Gone with the Wind' has nostalgia for the Antebellum South, fans of the film have nostalgia for an era where they didn't have to put this movie under the microscope in a way that is so triggering for them. Just as Big Magilla says "Sometimes they go too far." All the more reason to put the film under the microscope.

Let's start with this: 'Gone with the Wind' is an Oscar injustice. Yes, it was a historic box office smash had many cinematic achievements, but today it plays as unwatchably racist. The fact that it bested 'Mr. Smith Goes to Washington,' 'Stagecoach,' and 'The Wizard of Oz' is unforgivable. And I understand this is hard to take, but I'll kindly remind you all that when I landed on this message board at seventeen years of age, I considered 'Braveheart' my favorite film. Today, I recognize it as reprehensibly homophobic. It's time to stop making excuses for 'Gone with the Wind.'
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Re: Should "Gone with the Wind" go the way of the Confederate flag?

Post by dws1982 »

The Original BJ wrote:Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "this scene was not played as master-beating-slave." The scene is LITERALLY a master beating her slave.
Yeah, and I think it's worth pointing out that Scarlett has the freedom to slap Prissy because of their respective positions in the social hierarchy. Scarlett may have slapped an actual family member in the same situation, but the family member could've (and probably would've) slapped her back. Prissy couldn't. While a slaveowner could be punished for murdering a slave, if they "accidentally" killed a slave during punishment, nothing was said about it.
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Re: Should "Gone with the Wind" go the way of the Confederate flag?

Post by The Original BJ »

OscarGuy wrote:I disagree with that statement, BJ. No one is saying it was "good for blacks."
But people ARE saying that. Bill O'Reilly literally had an entire program in response to Michelle Obama's Democratic Convention speech about how she lived in a house built by slaves where he argued that slaves were well-fed and taken care of like family so it's unnecessarily divisive for liberals to dwell on the ills of slavery. Last month Tucker Carlson had a segment demanding that contemporary Americans stop criticizing slave-owners because of the sheer prevalence of slavery throughout world history. To be very clear, I know YOU'RE not saying slavery was good for blacks, and I know Reza wasn't saying that either, but I don't think we're being honest about the state of the world right now if we say "no one" is talking like this. And even to expound on who is included in the phrase "no one," these aren't fringe individuals either -- they are/were hosts of television programs watched by millions. (And the actual fringe voices -- the people who no one disagrees are flagrant white supremacists -- are even MORE explicit about the benevolence of white slave-owners toward an inferior race.)

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "this scene was not played as master-beating-slave." The scene is LITERALLY a master beating her slave.
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Re: Should "Gone with the Wind" go the way of the Confederate flag?

Post by OscarGuy »

I disagree with that statement, BJ. No one is saying it was "good for blacks." Even in the seminal "12 Years a Slave," there's a family who treats his slaves well. This is treated as a good thing, even if a short-lived one. They were indentured, yes, but they took comfort wherever they could and if that was in a family that treated them as such, even as property, it was preferable to being with a family that would use hanging as a punishment.

I've lived in Missouri my entire life. We were a slave state. We have a southern victory civil war memorial in our backyard. I'm well aware of the impact of the Civil War, even as far north as Missouri. No one is condoning what was going on. Yes, GWTW is problematic, but the scene Reza is talking about is well understood. Hollywood, at the time, was not free of prejudice, but it was still supportive as best it could be. This scene was not played as master-beating-slave. The entire film isn't portrayed that way.

Here's a woman, proud, independent, unconcerned with the war, used to her comforts. Here are two slaves who have had opportunities to flee and don't. They stay with Scarlett not out of servitude, but out of familial love. They stay because they are treated like family. They have found a household that will protect them and treat them more as people, servants sure, but people nonetheless. The alternative is a scary proposition. Leaving risks death or re-enslavement at the hands of far less forgiving an owner.

Gone With the Wind is unconcerned with slavery and that is one of its biggest problems. It treats slaves as servants and avoids labeling them as anything but. Yes, we know that's what they are as we are familiar with that period of history, but so too were those who made the film. Their focus was not on how great and glorious was the south, but how strong and principled this woman was. How she had to mature in a time of trouble. She is the epitome of white privilege, yet it's through the lens of her own actions, the actions of those around her and the familial love of her slaves that she grows to become a better woman. It does not glorify slavery. It doesn't fully denounce it, but that's not the point of the story.

This is why I feel the film needs desperately to be given the proper context. It needs to have discussion, open discussion, about its merits and flaws. It's not endemic of anything, but it's being treated as such. It must be put in its proper context. I think Lou Lumenick and his ilk are unnecessarily stirring the pot. I think that they are just as culpable in the persistence of white privilege as those who oppose the peaceful protests of football players sitting at sports games. Here's a white critic with nothing to lose pushing an agenda that he believes will mollify or support the black community. He's using his voice for a purpose which he was never asked. He isn't standing up for anything. Lumenick is an ass and always has been one. He has an agenda and making the post he did some years ago that helped start this movement only brought him fame and attention. From everything I've read about him and for the brief period I was on hist friends list, he came off more as someone trying to make a buck off a contentious subject rather than someone who genuinely cared about the plight of blacks in cinematic history. Matter of fact, I think he hated the film long before it became a political bugaboo and this was his way to try and tear the film down further. It's the worst kind of white privilege: opportunistic privilege.

Personally, I think a program that discussed the treatment of black characters in the period would be well served by showing Gone With the Wind and 12 Years a Slave as companion pieces. Both show different approaches to handling the subject. They do so in wholly different, though in some situations similar ways. Get black community leaders in to discuss the problems of the film, but also to discuss historical context and merits of the film. Instead of saying that all remnants of the south should be shelved, we need to treat them in a period context. Use them as educational tools. We can better understand the Southern mindset in such a work and perhaps use that familiarity and understanding with southern racists or pseudo-racists and perhaps figure out the best way to educate and reform them. After all, there's nothing a southerner hates more than being told they are wrong and liars. They'll just dig their heels in and hate you even more for it. Try coming at it from a different angle and maybe you can engender a change in belief structure.
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Re: Should "Gone with the Wind" go the way of the Confederate flag?

Post by The Original BJ »

Reza wrote:
The Original BJ wrote:
Reza wrote:Had nothing to do with McQueen's colour.
Prissy is Scarlett's PROPERTY.
I know Prissy is Scarlett's "property" but she along with Mammy and a number of others are also like family.
Look, I get that you are coming from a completely different cultural context, so I don't assume ill intent, but in America, the above statement is literally a white supremacist talking point for why slavery was actually good for blacks.
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Re: Should "Gone with the Wind" go the way of the Confederate flag?

Post by Reza »

:lol:
Big Magilla wrote:Sometimes they go too far.

Now they're claiming that the film is racist because Scarlett (Vivien Leigh) slaps Prissy (Butterfly McQueen) during the birth of Melanie's (Olivia de Havilland) baby. Now, really, did anyone who saw the film in 1939 or in its many subsequent showings in theatres, on TV and home video, where it's been a consistent favorite, cheer Scarlett on or think Prissy deserved the slap? Most people I know, winced the first time they saw it.
I think I now understand why people in America winced when Prissy was slapped. It's your long history of slavery. Guilt.

I saw it totally from a different angle. I never once thought of Scarlett the white woman slapping Prissy the black woman (even though they were) during that particular scene keeping in context that tense situation. People in the theater cheered Scarlett for slapping Prissy as the slap was a moment of comic relief during a very tense dramatic moment. And yes she deserved the slap because she was being bloody annoying just then.
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Re: Should "Gone with the Wind" go the way of the Confederate flag?

Post by Reza »

The Original BJ wrote:
Reza wrote:Had nothing to do with McQueen's colour.
Prissy is Scarlett's PROPERTY.
I know Prissy is Scarlett's "property" but she along with Mammy and a number of others are also like family. Slapping Prissy during that heated moment had nothing to do with Prissy's colour. If it had even been some white person or one of Scarlett's own sister's it would be a natural reaction to slap that person who was being hysterical. There was an army attacking, Melanie was going into labour and Prissy never brought the doctor and was acting weird just standing around followed by hysterical whining. Scarlett slapped her. Nothing wrong in that. A perfectly natural reaction under the circumstances.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. Of course if you all mean that slapping a person - any person - during an hysterical moment keeping in view that particular birth scene is "politically incorrect" then I don't agree at all. Humans tend to act that way. And not necessarily because of anyone's colour.
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Re: Should "Gone with the Wind" go the way of the Confederate flag?

Post by Precious Doll »

OscarGuy wrote:I get that Prissy and Mammy are her "property," but if anything, Scarlett treats them like family. I can see that some might feel this film makes slavery out to look like some rosy picture of the past, but it requires honest discussion and contextual framing. It's like showing Birth of a Nation should be followed by Intolerance and thus explore how good people can look at something differently than others and then admit their mistakes and learn from them. Or how Triumph of the Will should be framed as an excellent example of propagandism and how it can be used to manipulate the masses and the downsides to that.

As cineastes, we should be supporting the film heritage while acknowledging its faults. We should be helping others understand a film's place in cinematic history not encouraging others to deny access to it simply because of uncomfortable subject matters. I think Disney should buck up and release Song of the South as a film class item where appropriate conversation topics are used to discuss its historical context.

Anything, even controversial things, can be done with the proper framework and discussion as long as the proper expectations are set.
I agree with Oscar Guy's post and films like Song of the South need to be released and seen by new generations in context. Ditto Ken Russell's The Devils. Why are Warners so scarred about this one.
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Re: Should "Gone with the Wind" go the way of the Confederate flag?

Post by Big Magilla »

danfrank wrote:
The Original BJ wrote: But I also do think it's important for us to be careful about the language we use to discuss it. I'm not bothered by the slap -- if anything, it's a moment that depicts with more honesty than most of the movie the cruelty of that power dynamic -- but a statement that an enslaved person deserved abuse, when what they deserved was never to be enslaved at all, and that that had nothing to do with skin color...well, I respectfully just have to point out how problematic that is, for hopefully obvious reasons.
Couldn't have said it better.
I agree. I first saw Reza's response in the middle of the night and was too shocked to respond at the time. I couldn't tell whether he was being serious or sarcastic.
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Re: Should "Gone with the Wind" go the way of the Confederate flag?

Post by danfrank »

The Original BJ wrote: But I also do think it's important for us to be careful about the language we use to discuss it. I'm not bothered by the slap -- if anything, it's a moment that depicts with more honesty than most of the movie the cruelty of that power dynamic -- but a statement that an enslaved person deserved abuse, when what they deserved was never to be enslaved at all, and that that had nothing to do with skin color...well, I respectfully just have to point out how problematic that is, for hopefully obvious reasons.
Couldn't have said it better.
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Re: Should "Gone with the Wind" go the way of the Confederate flag?

Post by The Original BJ »

Look, I think Gone With the Wind is a hugely impressive piece of moviemaking, and I can hold that opinion simultaneously with one that acknowledges some of its politics are fossilized, and that it (like every movie throughout film history) must be understood within the context of its time. (I also can acknowledge that it's a complicated movie, with elements that are way too rosy -- the cringe-worthy opening title card -- as well as elements that offset a lot of that superficial rosiness -- I think it's a real asset that Scarlett is such a horrible person, that she and Rhett don't care at all about the cause of the Confederacy, that nostalgia for the past is frequently shown to be a destructive force in the characters' lives, etc.)

But I also do think it's important for us to be careful about the language we use to discuss it. I'm not bothered by the slap -- if anything, it's a moment that depicts with more honesty than most of the movie the cruelty of that power dynamic -- but a statement that an enslaved person deserved abuse, when what they deserved was never to be enslaved at all, and that that had nothing to do with skin color...well, I respectfully just have to point out how problematic that is, for hopefully obvious reasons.

In response to the theater's decision not to show the movie, I guess my take on it would be that every theater has the right to show whatever movies it wants to, for the audience it knows it's serving. I think it can be easy to say, don't not screen it, present it in context, but every venue has to make decisions about what to showcase and why and when, and I'm not, for instance, bothered that the Hollywood Forever Cemetery doesn't annually screen Triumph of the Will as part of its outdoor summer movie series. (Not equating GWTW to TotW.)

I think a lot of this simply has to do with the political moment, too. It was a lot easier to screen Gone With the Wind during the Obama era and feel like audiences innately understood that its dated elements were a product of 75 years ago, whereas I can understand why a theater today, particularly in the South, would be more wary.

For the record, I also think Disney should release Song of the South.
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Re: Should "Gone with the Wind" go the way of the Confederate flag?

Post by OscarGuy »

I get that Prissy and Mammy are her "property," but if anything, Scarlett treats them like family. I can see that some might feel this film makes slavery out to look like some rosy picture of the past, but it requires honest discussion and contextual framing. It's like showing Birth of a Nation should be followed by Intolerance and thus explore how good people can look at something differently than others and then admit their mistakes and learn from them. Or how Triumph of the Will should be framed as an excellent example of propagandism and how it can be used to manipulate the masses and the downsides to that.

As cineastes, we should be supporting the film heritage while acknowledging its faults. We should be helping others understand a film's place in cinematic history not encouraging others to deny access to it simply because of uncomfortable subject matters. I think Disney should buck up and release Song of the South as a film class item where appropriate conversation topics are used to discuss its historical context.

Anything, even controversial things, can be done with the proper framework and discussion as long as the proper expectations are set.
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Re: Should "Gone with the Wind" go the way of the Confederate flag?

Post by The Original BJ »

Reza wrote:Had nothing to do with McQueen's colour.
Prissy is Scarlett's PROPERTY.
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Re: Should "Gone with the Wind" go the way of the Confederate flag?

Post by Reza »

Big Magilla wrote:Sometimes they go too far.

Now they're claiming that the film is racist because Scarlett (Vivien Leigh) slaps Prissy (Butterfly McQueen) during the birth of Melanie's (Olivia de Havilland) baby. Now, really, did anyone who saw the film in 1939 or in its many subsequent showings in theatres, on TV and home video, where it's been a consistent favorite, cheer Scarlett on or think Prissy deserved the slap? Most people I know, winced the first time they saw it.
Why would people wince? Prissy deserved that slap. She was being bloody annoying especially during a particularly tense moment. Had nothing to do with McQueen's colour.
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